Oakeshott XII attempt

[Chad J.]

So I started this a couple weeks ago and I've already identified one annoying mistake.  My steel was too big so its been some extra work.   Currently the blade is forged and I brought it down to a reasonable weight prior to heat treating.  I'm holding off on that until I get a tempering oven made or located big enough to handle this blade.  I got into this because I was making a dagger and thought, what this is the side weapon without the primary.   Anyway here's what I've managed to accomplish. 

I started out with a piece of 5160 26 inches long,  3 inches wide and tried to get it down to 2.25 inches.  My thought process was I wanted to make sure I had enough material in case I screwed up.   Next time same length but I'll start at 2 inches wide, 1/2 inch thick.   I'm at 5/16ths at the base and 1/4 3 inches from the tip.   It's weight is about 3 maybe 4 pounds so it has more weight to lose.

[Andrew Golabek]

its going to be a lot of grinding or filing, howre you planning on heat treatment? 

[Chad J.]

The grinding is easier when you have a solid belt grinder but I'm about down to where I'm going to hand file it to get the fuller right and smooth everything out.  A neighbor has a 2 burner devils forge that he sent my way for a bit since he's out hunting.  I'll be running it through that and I'll hook up my weed burner as well to help it keep heat.  I'm going to go with Steve Sell's recommendation and use my grill for tempering.   

 

Right now as the blade sits bare, it's center of balance is right around 11.5 inches from where the guard will be and the forward pivot at about 9 to 10 inches from the tip if I am measuring it correctly.  With the rough guard and pommel I can move it back closer to 6.5 to 7 inches.   The blade is actually a bit long still and I'll be bringing it back closer to 31 inches instead of 33.  It's already very stabby and getting close to the 3 pound mark on weight for the blade.  I haven't checked my taper yet if anyone was going to ask but it's there. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Chad J.
Correction of naughty typo

[ThomasPowers]

3 pound including the hilting is considered a heavy sword blade; I hope it lightens up in the finishing!

[Chad J.]

I won't stop until it meets my goal.  It may take a bit more fine tuning of the blade's shape and taper.  I'm not talking it any lighter until after I quench it.  Then the goal for the blade is maybe 1 pound 12 ounces,  with the pommel, handle, and guard totaling another 6 ounces.  

[ThomasPowers]

So a total of 2 pounds 2 oz.  Pretty much spot on!

[Chad J.]

Used some fairly aggressive files to make sure the bevels were straight and I'm in the process of getting the fuller right so I don't have to mess with it much after heat treat.  It's a hair under 3 pounds right now.   I need to shorten it an inch and rework the shape.   Then it's a matter of the final grinds.  Saturday is the target date for heat treat. 

[JHCC]

Looking good. How's the rebound on that pumpkin?

[Chad J.]

Kinda mushy

[ThomasPowers]

But that's three pounds without the hilting?

[Chad J.]

It is,  feels lighter than that though and we all know bathroom scales with heavy, I had to stand on the scale with and without the thing.  I'm comfortable with where it's at to heat treat it, I'm concerned that if I go thinner it may want to warp on me.   The edges are just over the thickness of a dime, it needs to lose an inch in length,  target is 31 inches on the blade, I can work down the fullers a bit more,  and I'm a bit thicker than I want.   Still plenty of room to work with.  The blade itself is actually 2 1/4 wide right now.   If I run out of places to shave metal I'll reduce it to 2 inches wide and adjust  accordingly.  

[ThomasPowers]

Have you cut with it for over an hour straight with an improvised handle?  "Light when picked up" can equate to heavy in use. (But is still better than "Heavy when picked up!"   You will lose a bit finishing after heat treat; but hilting can add a lot too; especially if weight is added to change the POB.

"Heavy is slow and slow is dead on the battlefield!"

[Chad J.]

Getting into the topic of the weight and weight distribution, I wonder how much the training with the weapon affected this.  Perhaps they may have had heavier dummy weapons for practice, muscle development, and endurance training?  With proper training and practice would a heavier sword give an advantage on breaking through an opponent's parry or shield?  How much weight was lost over the course of a swords usable lifetime to sharpening or modification?  I'm simply asking these questions as an aside.  I need to find a local HEMA group I think. 

[Frosty]

In my limited reading, weighted practice: swords, spears, axes, hammers, pole arms, shields were the norm, for standing armies anyway.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Working at the Pell with a heavier blade was a known thing I believe.  On the battlefield a heavier blade is slower and as much of the fight was voiding the other blade; it being heavier was more likely to cause the holder of it to be out of position and so open for an attack. People did not stand statically when sword fighting, movement was a key part.

You can study several known works on fencing---nicely given in "The Princess Bride":

"Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capo Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capo Ferro. Don’t you?
Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have"

and don't forget George Silver's "Paradoxes of Defence"

Also the far eastern sword methods where they avoid blade chopping blade. (We have IFI members much more up on those than I am.)

What I object to is people keep telling folks how heavy swords were and that then being handed down to the next group.  Spend some time averaging sword weights in the Wallace Collection catalog and you get the idea that European swords were generally not that heavy!  I had a friend who was Special Forces in Viet Nam and he once told me that they were expected to carry and fight carrying considerably more weight than a suit of armour and it wasn't nearly as well distributed and yet folks are still telling that Knights had to be lifted onto their horses by a crane!

Funny I picked up a copy of Capo Ferro at our church's rummage sale this year.  One of the other members warned me;  it was full of engravings of mostly nude people sticking swords through each other.   (The nudity to show how the muscles "worked" for differing attacks and defenses.)  So if you are averse to nudity in renaissance art; perhaps best avoided...

[George N. M.]

Read S.L.A. Marshall's The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation.  It studies the load infantrymen were expected to carry in WW2.  IIRC the troops assaulting Normandy in 1944 were expected to carry around 85 pounds including weapons and ammo.  Most of that got left on the beaches.

In Viet Nam, in the bush, we carried heavy ruck sacks which had quick release tabs.  If we got into contact we would drop our rucks and just carry our web gear with ammo and 1 or 2 1 quart canteens.

The powers that be have always thought that the grunt needed to carry lots of extra things, food, extra clothing, shelter tents, overcoats, extra shoes, etc..  These usually get discarded pretty quickly on the theory that when things like cold weather gear is needed it will be re-issued by the quartermaster.

I will say that load bearing gear has evolved over the years and gotten better.  However, that is a 2 edged sword because with better load bearing equipment there is a temptation to load the soldier down with more weight.

I have always heard that for backpacking a fit man can carry, day in and day out, no more than 1/3 of his body weight.  For women the proportion is 25% of body weight.  You can carry more for a shorter period of time.  I have carried loads of probably 75% of my body weight but not for great distances and it wasn't fun.  Weight lifters can lift several times their body weight but what I am talking about is the average, reasonably fit, person.

To get an idea of how wielding a sword of a given weight will be over time, take a piece of steel stock of the same weight and wave it around or even just carry it by one end for 10 or 15 minutes.  Soon you will appreciate the distinct difference between 1.5 pounds and 2.0 pounds.  The same is true for shields.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Chad J.]

Thanks,  I am also trying to find a local HEMA guild to get input on feel from them.   I could think it feels good and it be totally messed up.  

[Buzzkill]

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

I had a friend who was Special Forces in Viet Nam and he once told me that they were expected to carry and fight carrying considerably more weight than a suit of armour and it wasn't nearly as well distributed and yet folks are still telling that Knights had to be lifted onto their horses by a crane!

My gear was weighed once when I was out in the field.  I was carrying just over 120 lbs.  That included weapon, ammunition, kevlar helmet, water, radio, encryption device, extra batteries, rucksack, etc. etc.  However, this was done when the weather was reasonably warm.  I didn't have the "good to -40 degrees" goose down sleeping bag, snowshoes, or heavier clothing with me.   Like George indicated though, we had a small amount of gear separated so we could drop the heavy rucksack quickly if we were engaged. That would take me down to about 45 to 50 pounds of gear, but fairly well distributed on the body.

I can tell you that in full gear someone would have to lift me on to a horse though.  It didn't matter how big or fit you were.  Ten or more hours of walking with all that gear on wore everyone out.  I thought they were just playing a trick on the new guy when they first told me all we had to carry.  They weren't.

[ThomasPowers]

So 60 to 80 pounds for a good suit of armour, well distributed, and a HORSE to carry it and you around!

[George N. M.]

I have seen a guy in full plate armor do a cart wheel.  Younger and stronger than me but not a beast.

Also, tilting armor used for the joust was much heavier than field armor meant to be worn all day.  Sets of armor ("garnitures') often came with the basic field armor pieces and other, heavier, plates to attach to the field armor for the joust.

What adds up for the grunt is all the "unit" stuff like extra batteries, a belt or two for the M-60, demo equipment, smoke grenades, etc..

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Chad J.]

I operated light, Kevlar helmet,  vest with front, back,  and side plates,  satchel charge (20 lbs),  rifle, a dozen loaded mags, rifle or shotgun.  We operated from forward locations and moved by vehicle.  Anyway it's ready to heat treat tomorrow,  I'm assuming my scale is lying but it's down to 2 lb 6 ounces.

[Chad J.]

Well it hardened. I'm questioning the temper, my grill was not cooperating.  It was either too hot or too cold.   I'll have to do it again today or tomorrow.  It looked like it took a straw color.  I put it to the grinder at 220 grit last night to clean everything up and the next temper should give me a diffinative result.  If that doesn't work it'll be on to plan B or C, maybe D, E, or, heaven forbid,  plan F whatever that may be. 

[Chad J.]

My blade is down to 2 lbs 2.5 ounces.   So the whole sword has dropped below the 3 pound mark.  This project is taking me a lot of time but it is forcing me to slow down a lot and measure instead of freehand...errr for the most part. 

[Chad J.]

I just realized I never posted in here again.  It finished off at 2 pounds 4 ounces.  I did a leather wrap on the handle and then string wrapped it for texture.   Not happy with the leather on the seam but it was a first time and it cuts very nicely. 

 

 

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Wow that turned out pretty cool man!!!!!!