Fabricated anvil build (I'm new)

[Vinito]

I posted in the "Show Me Your Anvil" thread, but figured I'd start a new one so as not to hijack anything.

I put this together yesterday. A bit beat (me, not the anvil) getting to this point so I stopped here, but I planned to add a bunch of fill to the sides later this week, then I'll refine it a little for looks & pride. I figured filling the sides would help a bit and look better, but replies from some illuminated that doing so will be way more important than I previously realized.

This was just stuff I had in the pile. Being totally new and ignorant of the finer points, I just set out to get something together and tried to keep from going down the rabbit hole of endless details.

5" x 1" x 14" top plate, 9" or so being the center work surface. It's just mild steel which I can address later if I find I want to. Bottom plate also 1" thick by about 15" x 7-1/2" width. Center body is 5" round solid x about 9" length. Horn is some 3" round x about 7" length, turned to a cone at the lathe and back face cut at a slight angle so it points up a little. The horn is the one piece that's not mild steel. I dunno what it is exactly, but turning made it evident to me that it's a bit of an upgrade. I will use it for a while first, but I may add a plate of harder steel to the top someday.

I'm a machinist by trade, so I machined the hardie hole on a mill leaving just a bit of filing at the corners. It's 1" square (seemed proportional for the thing) with about .020" of clearance, which I hope is not too little (making things too tight is always a machinist temptation).  I drilled two pritchell holes near the hardie hole, 3/4" and 3/8" (actual holes a bit oversize of course). I figured the additional small one might come in handy, and in fact discovered last night that a 5/16" carriage bolt slipped through it fits about perfectly for working on shaping the head.

I've got a little under 5 relaxing hours into it so far and the material is 100% from the scrap pile.

So far she weighs in at 106 lbs. but that will go up another 10 or 20 lbs. maybe once I fill the sides in.

Well that's about it I think. I'll post progress in a few days.

I'm brand new to this subject so I think this anvil will serve me well for a bit. Been learning a lot from the armchair the past few weeks so I'm looking forward to getting some iron in the fire.

Let me know what ya think! (note that I'm well aware that the sides should be filled and that will be done soon)

[USANewbie]

Nice anvil. I made mine from forklift tines. Did you machine the horn?

[Vinito]

Yeah, just stepped it out and eyeballed a blend, then filed & polished it smooth. All on the lathe.

I didn't think of it before starting, but what I should have done is cut the angle on the back face first before turning a curved cone out of the rest of it. It was already to length so the shape made it "interesting" to clamp it for the final angle cut on the band saw. I guess that would have made the lathe work tricky though. Best idea would have been to start with a longer piece so there was always plenty to grab onto. Make do.

I know using power tools is cheating, but following that logic I do almost nothing but cheat all day long. 

I like the forklift tines idea.

[Glenn]

This thread has been moved to Anvils, Swage Blocks, and Mandrels.

[ThomasPowers]

Actually I would have suggested using the round piece vertically for the anvil and making it more of a stake anvil with the horn and hardy area added.  The working area of the anvil is where there is steel from top to bottom; so filling in the sides will help.

[Purple Bullet]

Nice work. It's kind of backwards from most anvils in material, though. Horns and shelves( if that's the right term for the flat spot between the face of the anvil and the horn) are usually softer and the face is hard. That doesn't mean you won't get great use out of your build, but eventually you will probably want to get a hard layer on top and make sure your horn is annealed.  Impressive machine work. I can barely turn on my lathe.  

[Vinito]

Thanks a lot Glenn !!

Well Thomas you might get to see some vertical round too. Not to be outdone, my brother liked what I did so far but he has to have one too, and of course it will be twice as big... just because. And his plan is to set the round vertically and taller, though still a bunch of fill because he's planning three of them side-by-side for the main body. It will be his project but I'm sure I'll be involved to some degree, and I'll take pictures and post 'em.

PB, I think the horn will actually still not be exactly "hard" since it's not heat treated, but just a higher carbon content than mild steel in its current state. I'm guessing some 41xx series maybe. But not being heat treated should give it a little more resistance to dinging than 1018 but not full-tilt. I think someday I'll add a harder layer on the flat, but I'm just gonna try it out for a while once I get the sides filled in. Adding more stuff is almost always fairly easy.

Heck, I might hate the thing and want to build V 2.0 right away for all I know. I don't think so, but I have pretty much zero experience so it's all theoretical for me so far. Plus, I'm often wrong so I'm kinda ready for any possible outcome at this point.

[caotropheus]

Nice project Vinito. 

I built a couple of anvils my self and your idea of filling the sides with weld an add small bits and pieces to add more weight and make the all construction more solid is also good. I made videos of my anvil projects and I hope you can improve on my ideas. I am no professional metal worker, I am just an hobbyist. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLsgFjkBQtg&ab_channel=caotropheus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSpXA0b33Fg&ab_channel=caotropheus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1-gk6W5Qrs&ab_channel=caotropheus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkQgx7GqU4M&list=PLxAZAWFQq-PWxctDvqAQJ-7rCpB6WK_WO&ab_channel=caotropheus

The method I prefer to harden the working surfaces of my anvils is by applying a layer of hardfacing rod. It is simple, it is fast and it is not going to detach itself from the anvil main body. Since you have a top plate mild steel, you can apply directly the hardfacing layer.  I also think that mild steel body anvil + hardfacing make the most robust anvils you can homemade. If you get a dent on the surface or something brakes, you can always grind the damaged area and re-weld it.

 

Good luck with the project and do not forget to post pictures and/or videos

[ThomasPowers]

Show your brother the NIMBA anvils.

[Purple Bullet]

The hard-surface rods are probably best,  I repaired my anvil with them 40 years ago but I had a mild case of sticker shock the last time I priced them. 

[ThomasPowers]

There are several types of hard surface rods.  It's best to use the type suited for the application.

[Frosty]

You might want to take advantage of your Brother's competitive nature and show him pictures of a tire hammer while telling him about building one. He might save you a lot of trouble and you guys can share both.

You want to use steel on stone type hard face rod, it is impact resistant without being so hard it'll damage your hammer. Steel on steel hard face rod is more for abrasion resistance and can indent where you hammer.

Frosty The Lucky.

[caotropheus]

Vinito

I almost forgot. I suggest you to re-enforce the hardy tool/pritchel holes area by adding some material underneath it. The top plate you are using may seem thick  but it looks a bit flimsy for blacksmith work. 

[Vinito]

My understanding on hard-surfacing rod is that it poses a risk of chipping off which can cause injury. I haven't looked into different kinds of it though so maybe Frosty is onto something with a different type of it? It would make sense to me that, with the hundreds of different kinds of rod a guy can buy, that there wouldn't be a huge gap between soft welding rod and something that's so brittle it chips easily. Surely there is rod or wire which will be hard but durable against shock. I need to research that a bit.

But as another option, aside from having to transfer and match the holes I've already got in the top plate, seems like if I could add 1/2" or 3/4" of a good plate to the top and just weld it on the edges (making sure it's as tight to the substrate as possible) might be doable too.

Yeah caotropheus, I am indeed planning to add some gussets and filler as thick as I can under the protruding top plate.

I laid down several beads on the thing this evening. It's starting to look better. I have family coming in from out of town tomorrow so my expectation of getting it kind of done this week might be pushed back a bit. But as soon as I get it beefed up I'll snap another photo & post it. Meantime I'll research welding rod & wire this week and see if I can find anything interesting.

[Goods]

Edge welding won’t work, you’ll need a  full penetration weld across the face. I have an anvil that was “repaired” that way, and it’s worse than working on a cast iron “anvil”. (I have two of those also.) You could lay a 1/4” rod between the anvil and new face plate then stick weld the gap all the way working from both sides. Honestly, it would be much easier to hard face it, and there is a very well accepted method of doing so, I just can’t remember the name or link to it. I’m sure someone will mention it…

David

[caotropheus]

33 minutes ago, Vinito said:

My understanding on hard-surfacing rod is that it poses a risk of chipping off which can cause injury.

Not so much. Speak with your welding material  manufacturer and ask them for advice on what rod or wire to use. There are people here that have done this sort work, sure they can advise you as well.   Since I do not live in the USA I do not know your welding supplies so well, so I cannot recommend you. The hardfacing I applied to my anvil was just a single layer. Once my over-enthusiastic 20 yo son helped me as a striker, he missed the hot steel and smashed the corner of a 5 kg sledge hammer into the hardfaced anvil. There was no chipping (not the anvil nor the sledge), just a small dent that I can repair if I wish since I know exactly what hardfacing rod I used. 

There are different levels of hardness for hardfacing welding materials you just use the one that best suits your needs.

[ThomasPowers]

"The Gunther-Schuler method of Anvil Repair"  considered the gold standard. I've had anvils repaired that way still working great after more than a decade!

[Vinito]

Well this is great news to hear from you folks! I like the fact that hard-surfacing rod is 100% fused with the substrate rather than possible (likely?) void between plate layers. The source that inspired my original caution is much less experienced than you folks so it's obvious where my bias should lean. I'll source some rod based on the Gunther-Schuler recipe directly and follow it. Honestly, with that bit of process added, I feel like this one step (not that's it's a cakewalk, but still...) can definitely raise my project from the level of "experiment" up to a completely useful anvil. Thanks a ton for the advice. Well, maybe not a ton, but somewhere around 130 lbs. anyway 

Tonight was a bust, but it looks like I'll have some chunks of time the next three consecutive evenings, so without pushing too awful hard I think I'll probably have the sides filled in fully pretty soon. I will be adding a few bits of support under the hardie end and also filling in around the back of the horn so I can have a short bit of flat shelf which will also add more weld to sturdy up the horn itself a bit more. Some fair bit more to do, but I sure am significantly more excited about what I think the end result can be with this anvil build now.

[Frosty]

Use the Stoody hard face rod recommended in the Gunther method. I have another preference but the difference isn't worth me having to search through the rod in the shop to find the label on the can I bought last time I rebuilt an anvil. 

I've burned more hard face rod and wire than I'd wish on someone I didn't like. Hard facing auger and drill bits was a necessary bit of maintenance and I was the only guy on the crew who could run a decent bead. 

Anyway, no more than 2 passes deep or it'll want to spall off. No need to weave, you aren't making a structural weld, just run a straight even bead about mid range on the amperage. Maxing or over amping doesn't make it better and it can make for poor beads that crack and spall. 

I even took classes. <sigh>

Frosty the Lucky.

[Vinito]

Well I was all inspired to "just follow the directions", but already ran into the first hurdle out of the gate.

Stoody rod is hard to get at minimum. I'll call around a little locally tomorrow, but it certainly feels like you need the super-secret password to get in the door to find it online so far. Not a good sign. I think it's slightly easier to find an electron microscope for sale than Stoody rod. With all the supply problems today, I wouldn't be surprised if it was just impossible to actually get the stuff.

So I'm open to suggestions for substitution. (Thanks in advance)

Dang man, sure seems like most everything lately for me follows a similar path. I think pretty much all my interests are obsolete I guess. Kind of unfortunate that the respected Gunther-Schuler method might appear to be becoming outdated due to materials going extinct maybe.

I did find one web page that seems a little broken, but it let me put things into the cart "pending availability" (uuhh, let me guess...) and the price tag after hazard pay (I mean, really?) and shipping for 10lbs. each of the rod is close to $250, just so's ya know. Seems steep, but could be the going rate?

By the way, the actual ESAB website is completely broken and there is zero love there from any angle.

So yeah, if there is a good substitute, I'm into it. 

[ThomasPowers]

Find a place repairing heavy machinery and see if they have any on hand to sell you at a more reasonable price as they buy in bulk.

[Vinito]

43 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Find a place repairing heavy machinery and see if they have any on hand to sell you at a more reasonable price as they buy in bulk.

I could try, but it appears there are about 20 or so varieties of Stoody rod and the Gunther-Schuler writeup is pretty specific so I'm not sure how optimistic I feel about success going that route.

What I might find though in talking to that kind of shop is they might know (and have) some rod they use for high impact stuff maybe. Seems like exploring that wouldn't hurt anything. Also just talking to a welding supplier might yield similar ideas. I'll try that a bit today and see if there is any knowledge left out there - because I'm sure I'm not the only one who has found that lately most employees seem to be hired on whether they can answer a phone and not much beyond that most of the time. 

[Frosty]

Sorry I forgot to tell you that shopping online is most often futile, especially when you want to ask questions. Call a welding supply ask about the Stoody rod specified in the Gunther instructions and if they don't carry it they WILL carry an equivalent rod. Steel on stone hard facing is as common as earth moving equipment. 

Ever notice the little buttons or short beads on backhoe or loader bucket? Steel on stone hard facing. You see it on grader mold boards, oh heck everydarnedwhere. 

You do NOT need THE specific rod. Nothing a mere human can do with a hammer can compare to what pushing a modest sized boulder does for impact and flexion. Just don't over complicate it ask for "steel on stone" hard face rod equivalent to the Stoody rod specified in the instructions.

If for some crazy reason you can't find one at a welding supply, (NOT a hardware or big box store!) Thomas's suggestion of asking at heavy equipment repair shops is a good bet. Remember you want to ask in one that specializes in Earth Movers and "Steel on Stone" rod. 

IF you want to get fancy ask if they have one that leaves a smooth bead, it'll save you arm numbing time grinding it to finish.

Frosty the Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

You don't want the type that "spider webs" upon cooling! 

[Frosty]

That's usually a result of laying it too thick or too many passes, any type will spider web if applied incorrectly. The REALLY hard rods tend to spider web and everybody makes the mistake of buying a can thinking harder is better. 

Do NOT buy a hard facing rod with the highest rockwell#! 

I ran a LOT of Lincore 50 flux core hard face wire it was verging on too brittle and not something I recommend for anvil repair. One of the guys at work bought Lincore 55 because it is harder and couldn't keep it on the auger. He was a lousy welder but nobody could keep Lincore 55 on auger, it wasn't much good on bits where there is zero flex. It spider webs and spalls so chips would break out in use.

Anyway, Thomas is exactly right do NOT buy rod that spider webs. That IS the industry term.

Frosty the Lucky.