Learning to weld using Peterson NO.1 flux

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I saw Frosty talking about using this awhile back so I ordered some an a week or so ago it came in, after getting all my chores done this morning I finally got a chance to fire up the forge, an try my first forge weld, 

Originally I had planned on trying a basket weave as my first weld but it was suggested to me that I’d better practice some lap welded fire pokers first to learn, so I took that advice, 

I didn’t have any square stock hanging around today so I grabbed a leftover piece of 3/8” round stock, and squared it up, I brought it to a point an bent it over, then I cleaned the bend really shiny, i fluxed it an finished shutting it cold, then I heated it up and I brought it out an gave it a light hit, refluxed an returned it to the forge, I did that three time before starting to forge a point, I reheated on last time and bent the hook back out, an cleaned it up with the wire brush,

I see a little hairline crack so I’m guessing my first weld didn’t take, so after lunch imma start over with a fresh piece and give it another go! 

 

[Frosty]

That looks pretty good, it's hard to get round stock to weld seamlessly. If you really want to know if it's welded try pulling it apart. 

How do the welded rings look?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Stash]

Don't assume the weld didn't take- it isn't easy to make the seam completely disappear (at least for me). File/grind it down a bit to see if the 'crack' goes away. As this is an experiment, maybe just do some destructive testing- stick it in a vise and whack at it to see if you can open up the weld.

Steve

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Thanks y’all!

I’ll lock that dude down an see if the weld will break here in a few! 

I just finished number 2 weld, I went nosing around the scrap pile and found a short rusty piece of 1/2” square stock so I brought it in the shop an cleaned it up on the wire wheel and started agin, it was definitely easier to work with square the square stock! 
 

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

How do the welded rings look?

Lol Gimme just a few to look up how to do the scarf ring welding and I’ll give it a try here in a minute! 
 

here’s weld number 2

[Frosty]

Try not drawing the hook so thin, it's easier to weld similarly sized stock. It's easy to burn the thin half if they're dissimilar. 

It's still hard to get the seam to disappear, worry about that once you get welding down.

Frosty The Lucky.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I flipped through a couple books an seen some how tos on welding a link of chain but I didn’t see how to weld a ring on the end of stock, 

my question is do I just scarf the end an shape a ring then flux and then close an heat? 
or do you split the end like a hot dog roaster and then scarf the ends of the tines and shape them into a ring an then weld them together? 

or I’m I just over thinking this?  lol

[Frosty]

I just turn a ring and weld where they overlap. If you bend a 90 where they lap it's easy to center the ring on the shaft. I make the lap a little longer than the stock is wide, say 5/8" lap on 1/2" sq.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Okay I got it lol! thank you Frosty! 

I’m outta square stock I just had a little piece that I found awhile ago,

but while I was down there I found some more rusty 3/8” round stock so I’ll start squaring it up and then I’ll give the scarf ring weld a try here in just a few 

[Frosty]

When you do this kind of weld it should finish about the same thickness as the parent stock for a nice clean look. So all you need to do to the round is flatten it to a bit more than 1/2 thickness. It'll give you nice wide flat areas to weld. You might be able to make the weld disappear.

Frosty The Lucky.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Okay just finished my third weld!

the seam is still a little bit visible on the sides but the front it disappeared! 
 
I didn’t get the perfectly round, it’s more like a tear drop lol, 

I think imma have to make some more Hardy’s after that project! 

[Frosty]

That turned out pretty well. Truing the ring up is a job for the horn.

Next time lap it OVER the shank. By over I mean the end that laps is on top of the shank when laid flat. 

Welding the joint the way you did makes striking the lap an exercise in precision hammering. It's hard not to turn it into a teardrop shape ring. 

If you lap it OVER the ring it's easy to hit where it needs to be hit. The overlap from the hammer will simply forge the overlap and shank even until both are flat on the anvil. Then STOP! A little truing and some file work that's that. 

Scarf this type weld by making the sq. rod SLIGHTLY more narrow where the hammer and anvil will contact the joint and taper the end of the lapped end slightly. 

In this instance the joint surface being slightly wider means it won't shear into the other half of the joint. The edges will set then weld and the weld should be darned hard to see if at all. And disappear completely when you forge the weld to the same thickness and width as the parent stock.

Frosty The Lucky.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Ahhh! Think I understand what you meant by 90 degree bend now! 
 I did it straight at the shaft instead of perpendicular, 

I tried to true up the ring on the horn but I must have been doing that wrong to, that’s what gave me the thought of making a perfectly round cone hardy, that way I could have a a different angle to straighten it out, 

well i learned a lot today with y’all’s help and im happy ive done my first 3 forge welds! 

im gonna order some 3/8” an 1/2” square stock for more practice material, I think it’s gonna take a few more welds to get the hang of it, and it would go faster if I wasn’t having to square up round stock first, but till I get some in I’ll keep practicing with the round stock ive got on hand, 

But so far I’d have to say this Peterson’s NO.1 blue flux is working pretty well even for me not knowing anything about forge welding, 

ill try an do some more welding this week if I get time an I’ll try the scarf at a different angle like you suggested m! 

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Your first three welds look just like mine and I've been doing them forever (it seems like) good job.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Thank you Irondragon! 

[anvil]

great first forge welds. Your scarfs need some work. You need to upset your scarf to compensate for material thickness lost when forging. Say you start with half square. If you just forge your scarf to 1\4", make a point and turn up the end, when you lay them together your thickness will be 1\2" when laid on top of each other before your forge weld. Correct? As soon as you forge weld\forge it,  the total thickness now will be less than 1\2" thick because you have drawn it out. Correct? So, if you want to end up 1\2" thick where the weld is you must add material to both parts when you make your scarf. You do this by upsetting your scarf to make it thicker. If your parent stock is half square and after your forge weld, you get less than half, this is called a wasp waist. ungood. Actually, for this transition, you want the finished thickness to be more than half for aesthetics and structural strength,,, just something to think about.

Sorry for the poor drawing. Hope it helps. 

Also, when you setup to do your weld, the top line should be parallel with your anvil face{put the ring below the anvil face} so you have a clean shot at your forge weld. basically the loop hangs below your anvil face. After you get your forge weld, learn to shape the ring on the horn. This will help you work on hammer control. You dont need a ring/cone mandrel. 

How big should your upset be? I think most manuals say half the thickness of material. Thus, half square should be ~ 3/4". In reality, it depends on your skill level. If you need to forge weld and forge more than 3 times, maybe make your upsets bigger. If you can do it in one heat, maybe smaller. Heres the logic. It takes time to upset and draw out, so the smaller your scarf, the less upsetting and drawing out you need to do. 

One more thing, since these are practice pieces, a great way to test your welds is to bring your weld up to where you just see some color, and quench in water. If it doesnt come apart, its a good weld. 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Anvil thank you!
And thanks again for the tips!

I was hammering the weld on the face, I’ll try the next one with the loop down, 

 I have read on upsetting the end of stock, I haven’t read on how to upset in the middle of stock, I’ll have to look that up, 

I’m a little bit confused now on how the two ends should meet, Frosty said to put the end over the shank, but your picture looks like going directly at it? 

[JHCC]

1 hour ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said:

 I have read on upsetting the end of stock, I haven’t read on how to upset in the middle of stock,

Heat the section you want to upset, cool off either side, and hit the end of the bar so that the line of your hammer blow goes straight down its middle. 

Remember the wise words of British blacksmith Rowan Taylor: The section to be upset should be like a midget supermodel: short and hot.

[Frosty]

Anvil and I are talking two different techniques for welding a ring. I don't scarf welds nearly as much as that, even welding in line like Anvil's sketch shows. 

If you're going to follow anybody's suggestions, Anvil has many x the time at the anvil that I do.

One question Anvil. Are you describing scarfing and welding mild steel or wrought iron? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

Depending on the final application, a loop can be welded with the scarves in line (as shown in anvil's drawing above) or perpendicular. For an example of the latter, here's Marty Reisig's story board for making a miner's candlestick (although someone put some of the pieces down out of order):

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

5 hours ago, JHCC said:

Heat the section you want to upset, cool off either side, and hit the end of the bar so that the line of your hammer blow goes straight down its middle. 

Thanks JHCC, I’ll give it a shot, 

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

If you're going to follow anybody's suggestions, Anvil has many x the time at the anvil that I do.

Frosty, ive got lots of scrap an I don’t mind learning different ways to do the same thing!
In fact I think knowing how to tackle the same problem from multiple directions is pretty handy! 

[anvil]

Frosty, thanks for the compliments!

Basically a scarf is a scarf is a scarf. The principals are the same no matter what you forge weld. It is how I do high carbon steels, mild, wrought or a combination of all.

Basically, you need to upset in order to add material for what you lose when you draw out what you are hammering. If you just lay them on top of each other (basically a faggot weld) you will tend to get a wasp waist at each end, but not the middle.

The reason for the thin turned up tip is because its easier to forge weld in and not get that cold shut line.

22 hours ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said:

I haven’t read on how to upset in the middle of stock

Sorry for my poor drawing. I did a few to get what I got. On my first drawing, which ended up in my circular file, I showed the hot zone. You dont really need much of an upset in the middle. Its the best way to learn because it teaches you more hammer techniques.

Here's another poor drawing showing the heat zone and the basic setup for two scarfs when forge welding. You should be able to find a better pic most anywhere of the basic scarf. I suspect there is an infinite number of forge welds you can do. The one thing they all have in common is the upset. Technicus Joe did a recent video on doing a Tee weld out of heavy stock. His personal critique when done was ”next time I will upset both pieces”.