Heat Steel

[James Jackman]

Is common for new comers to take the steel out of the forge to quickly I am just starting and I don’t seem to be able to get that bright glow from the the steel and it seems to develop cracks when i am trying to move it  

Edited September 30, 2021 by Mod30
Remove excessive quote.

[Goods]

What are you using as a forge? (Propane, coal, charcoal, wood, corn, oil, induction?) What type of steel are you working with? Not a lot of information to work with right now.

Also, you may want to go through the “read this first” thread. Where are you located (roughly)? Could be someone close by to hang out with and get through some of the basics.

David

[Frazer]

I think we are going to need some more information to be able to answer your question. What kind of forge are you using? Have you tried resisting the urge to take the steel out of the fire and leaving it in there longer? What are you trying to make and what kind of steel are you using? etc. etc.

The more detail you provide the better equipped we are to help you out. We aren't mind readers.... yet.

By the way, welcome aboard. Please take a moment to read the following. It will help you get the most out of the site.

 

[Goods]

Looks like we’re on the same page Frazer!

[ThomasPowers]

Cracking can be the result of overheating some alloy steels burning or cottage cheesing  them, underheating some alloy steels, or working them till the get too cold.

Stop by the NMABA meeting Saturday and we will sort things out for you!

(One problem seen with folks who depend on internet videos is that cameras tend NOT to show the correct temperature colours!)

(Another one is people not understanding that "cherry red" is NOT Bing Cherries but the Pie cherries of nearly 150 years ago---another reason that working with someone who knows what they are doing is MUCH MUCH better than depending on internet videos!)

[Dax Hewitt]

I often wondered why cherry red isn't cherry red. That makes a lot of sense. 

[ThomasPowers]

Things change over time---including the language!  "Coal"  used to refer to charcoal and not Bituminous or Anthracite in Medieval times. (Though we still use "coals of a fire" wrt wood fires...)  I had  discussion with a person about when smiths started using coal to forge with; they dug out an early medieval lease where the payment was to include several wagonloads of "coal".  They didn't dig out what that term meant at that time though!   Iron was still smelted with charcoal into the 1700's, (Abraham Darby is credited with the first commercial smelting with coke in Coalbrookdale; but charcoal was still used for specialty smelting over a century later!)

So cherry red *is* cherry red---just a different cultivar; just as carrots commonly used to be purple! ("Le Ménagier de Paris" written in the late 14th century discusses purple carrots!)

[Rojo Pedro]

My answer is yes. I messed up all kinds of ways when I was beginning. Still do. 

I've burnt it, cracked it, crumbled melted splintered you name it. I have a pile of rejects some I spent considerable time on, only to burn up in a moment.  Learn from it _was all fun for me

[Frazer]

I have a box of shame for my more memorable scrap making exercises.. Damascus that split during the quench, a hammer I burnt in half by leaving it unattended, particularly ugly firsts, etc.. Then I have the scrap pile where practice pieces and the like go to potentially be repurposed later. And by that I mean collect dust and get buried

[anvil]

There must be a story behind a hammer you burnt in half.   

[Frazer]

Ha, yes. I had a 2-3" thick piece of RR track kicking around the shop for a while and I decided that if I decapitated it it would make for a good hammer blank. Fast forward a couple of hours (I have learned that RR track is some tough stuff to forge down by hand) I had the blank squared up and the eye partially opened up. I said to myself, "*Whew* it's hot out here!" and put the hammer partially in the fire and went inside to refill my water bottle with some nice refreshing ice water...

This was back when I was still using an electric blower for air and coincidentally I had recently switched over from a hair dryer to a much quieter furnace blower that had two settings: on (plugged in) and off (unplugged). Rather than unplugging the blower every time I would generally point it away from the tuyere to greater or lesser extent to control the air.... Well this time I forgot to do that.

By the time I came back I walked out to a beautiful volcano of sparks erupting out of the forge. The hammer had reproduced by fission but it did not survive the process.. It also made quite the mess inside the fire pot. Shortly thereafter I got a speed controller for the blower complete with an easily accessible on/off switch... Now I use a hand crank and I'm pretty fond of it.

Anyway, that's my hammer of shame story. The moral is don't leave things unattended in the fire even if you'll, "only be gone for a second".

[ThomasPowers]

I too went from an electric blower to hand powered air and decided I liked it better; saving steel and fuel were two of the reasons.

[JHCC]

This is why I have a deadman switch on my coal forge blower!

[anvil]

My first forge had an electric blower. It was a 12v fan for a car heater. This was my horse shoeing forge. I ran one lead to the hot side of my battery, and tapped the other end on my forge,,, When I quit tapping, it quit blowing,,,

I have a deadman on my hand crank blower as well,,, me.  .

On a more serious note, Frazer, you prolly know this, the best setup for an electric blower in my opinion is to have an air gate. Set your fan, if you have a rheostat, for your max needs, then use the hand operated gate to regulate airflow. Then turn it on when you start, close the gate when you go to the forge, use the on/off switch to turn it off when you dont need it.

[ThomasPowers]

I like the set up SOFA had on their forges:  A deadman foot switch, a manual air gate and an override switch for when you were doing heavy work.

[PHDforge]

I am a fairly newcomer to blacksmithing. I bought a new forge setup to get started a couple of years ago. The package I chose came with a small electric blower with a rheostat. I found that I didn't have enough control and added a gate value. This improved things. This past summer I was asked to do a demo and was told no electricity at the site. I bought a hand crank blower. I like the hand crank blower much better than the electric fan. You have much better control over your fire. I prefer it now. An added bonus is that your other arm gets a workout too.

Bob

[ThomasPowers]

I crank with my hammer arm, that way I don't have to swap things around when I go to take the piece out of the fire. (Or when you work it in the fire.)

[anvil]

I'm the opposite. I crank with my tong hand and maintain my fire with my hammer hand.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Same here...

[ThomasPowers]

How very odd.  So when you are creeping up to a tricky forge weld and it's just about to start sparking you take time to switch out which hand is holding the tongs?  I just grab the hammer handle on my way to the anvil.  I've done it both ways usually at demos where I've been sited so the wind and my forge and the crowd requires I work backwards; but in my shop I'm set up to crank with my hammer hand and work the fire with my tong hand----blacksmithing is sure a help in becoming more ambidextrous over time!

[Frazer]

I also turn the blower with my tong hand.. Primarily because of the way my forge was made. The blower is mounted on the left side and I'm right-handed. It would be silly for me to cross my arms and crank with my right hand while continuing to use my tong hand for manipulating the stock.

The blower continues to spin for 3+ rotations after I let go. While forge welding I will also generally let the pieces soak for a few seconds with no air before pulling them out. Those two factors leave me plenty of time to get my hands situated where they need to be.

I think it's fair to say that whatever way you're accustomed to work and can work most efficiently with is the correct way.

[anvil]

7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

So when you are creeping up to a tricky forge weld and it's just about to start sparking you take time to switch out which hand is holding the tongs?

To answer this is one of those "in person" 5 minute thangs that take a lot on paper to get to the same place. And, without question is right out of day 1, Turley Forge. What can I say.

I'll try to keep it short.

1: I work hammer to the heel. This means, when facing the anvil, hammer hand is on the heel side, not horn side.

2: before turning to my forge, I set my hammer down on the heel. I even set my hammer down at a comfortable hammer/anvil angle so my hand knows just where the handle is.

3: I turn 180 degrees to the forge on the horn side. Now my tongs are on the same side of the forge as my hand crank blower. My blower turns 5-6 revs without appreciably changing my fire temp. Thus i can grab my tongs and turn my steel in the fire as needed, set the tongs down and grab the blower handle without decreasing fire temp. The handle(revolving, so a little timing here) and tongs are within 5"-6" of each other and the tongs are about the same distance to my hot iron. I don't have to fumble or think about any of this because this is where they always are. At the same time, my hammer hand is now directly over my poker and rake so I can tend my fire as needed. 

4: I pick up my tongs, grab the hot iron, turn 180 twards the horn and as I come around to my anvil, my hand truly slides onto the hammer handle by rote memory, rotates 90 degrees, and I'm ready to forge,,, anything,,, over the sweetspot of my anvil. 

This enables another bennie. If I'm going to use some hand tools instead of my hammer, my hammer stays well out of the way behind the hardy hole. Also, I can easily put 2-3 tools on the step, working end away. In a pinch, I can put 4-5. As I make that 180 horn side turn, tongs to horn, I can flip the reins open and set the tongs, handles down, over the point of the horn and they will stay there patiently awaiting my return,,, without falling on the ground, falling off the heel, or getting in my way sitting on the face of the anvil. In this same move, my tongs are secure and as I finish the turn, my tong hand, sans tongs is in the perfect place to pick up the tools living on the step. My hammer hand repeats step 4 above. 

I'll add one more detail here. Balance. My anvil is 1-1/2 steps apart. When I turn, I first make a half step with my hammer foot. I then finish my turn with a full step with my tong foot. Literally, I'm now at the anvil and in balance body wise. My tong foot forward, my hammer foot a bit back, just like throwing a ball.

With all due respect, I just cant think of a more efficient way to work a forge and anvil than this. All i can say is, Thanks, Frank. 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Ike Doss taught me that same basic routine, over the years I have modified it slightly.

[George N. M.]

I use about the same routine as Anvil except my forge and anvil are about 90 degrees apart rather than 180.  That is the way the layout of past shops has dictated and I've gotten used to it.  Whatever I am doing I try to have all the tools laid out in a logical way and place so that there is as little wasted time and movement as possible.  Everyone has to evolve to a layout and motion that works best for them.  Lefties can have problems with commercially made coal forges because they are almost always laid out for right handed folk.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[ThomasPowers]

Work from the other side of the forge.  Easier when it's your shop and have set it up for lefties; then the righties have the problems!

"What works for you" is the key.  I try to do as few tong and tool switches as possible myself and cranking with my hammer hand works for me. (Blower to hammer hand end of the coal forge in my shop.) 

When I was using a double lunged bellows I had the pole mounted on a twisted loop of rope so it was easy to swap from side to side  and sometimes when there were two people using the forge I'd set the pole in the center so either of us could pump it. (NB: do not pull it down so far your hand enters the flames on top of the firepot!)