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Would like to post a preliminary pdf drawing for evaluation.


thomas_Tex

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Hello everyone:   on I Forge Iron

- Hope to contribute and be part of your wonderful forum!

Recently I have been reading most of the articles regarding smaller low cost forges and Burners for the past several months now on this forum.  I was happy to discover this wonderful group of highly intelligent and very knowledgeable people.  In addition ... I have also have been doing a fair amount of researching, on my own and acquiring a great deal of information regarding Furnace construction, Forging, Heat Treating, along with revised Knife Making from other sources.  (Gas Burners By: Michael Porter) is only one example for forge & burners.

-Too many years ago I was very actively and very involved making Knives as a hobby.  10 years ago ... House burned to the ground and lost the entire Machine Shop for extreme precision Gunsmithing.  Lost everything!

Time has passed, and I would like to construct a small Coffee Can Forge, and currently have a .pdf drawing, which I would like to provide and post to this group.  I am very new to this forum and would like to request a little help in providing a preliminary drawing for comments and or critique.

It may take me a little while to understand all the posting and forum system  specifics and the technical requirements.  I would like to active participate in providing everyone with my input and or any positive comments.  However; I have been reading several posts and comments from - "Mr. Alaska" -- Very interesting person!  But - He seems to a very nice guy ... and fairly knowledgeable.  [Expecting a comment from him.]  Looking forward to it.

- Final Question:

Will this forum allow me to post or attach a pdf picture?  [If so how do I do it?]  Reason being; I exported it from a TurboCAD program, and initially I saved it as a jpg.  Unfortunately the jpg had very poor resolution, to the point it was not really that legible.  jpg is bit map format, pdf is a vector format, which is really the way to go, and has much better resolution for viewing fine detail!  Any questions welcomed regarding the drawing.  I hope to be a contributor not like a tick on a Dog!

 - Sorry for being so verbose on my first post.  Hope I didn't upset anybody!  And ... most of all [The Moderators]

Thomas

San Antonio, TX

 

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Howdy from Oklahoma thomas_Tex! Welcome to the forum,

you might remove the at sign up top because I don’t think it’s allowed but other then that I don’t think the mods will contact you about anything else. 
 

cant help you with the image import how too question but normally it’s allowed, 

im sure if you want to hear from Frosty all you gotta do is set him up a straight line, trust me he can and will find anything on this forum that he can make a pun out of! 
(I’m assuming that’s who you mean by mr Alaska) 
 

but a faster way may be to pm him it’s just not as fun or funny for the rest of us to read! 

 

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Welcome from the Ozark mountains.

I have attached PDF files in the past and don't know about any prohibition on them, as long as there is no content that would violate the G rated family friendly TOS. To attach them if you have them saved you can use the paper clip at the bottom of the edit window.

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Welcome aboard Thomas, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header there's a chance we'll remember and you'll have a better chance of hooking up with members living within visiting distance. We're not going to remember where you are once we open another post.

Other than G rated content the only restriction on attaching files is size. .PDF format is fine but if you need to let us see a really large file linking us is best. There are some 50,000 members around the world many with dial up connections and pay for data so we try to hold the bandwidth to reasonable.

Naaa TwistedWillow, I can't be his Mr. Alaska, I have to wear suspenders or my belly pushes my pants down. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Oh come on! I was trying to think up (cool) Alaskan super hero name for you!

Captain Klondike the polar avenger and his faithful sidekick the galloping Moose! 
 

Suspender Jerry and his faithful side kick Damascus the toe biter! 
could work too but it just doesn’t have the same ring to it lol

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On 8/14/2021 at 7:19 PM, Frosty said:

Okay fine, have fun. NO cape though! 

Frosty   I'm sure you'll find this .... any comment?

Very Sorry for the illusive crack, regarding "Mr. Alaska".  It was totally uncalled for!  Please accept my sincere apologies for any negative connotations in the previous post.  After reading - more from IFI in the Burners-101 section, I do have to say ... You are an "exceptionally Brilliant Man" in the field of forges and burners!  & of course ... [Mikey] - Wow!  Totally blown away by the information presented!

-Not only - now do I admire your judgment and exceptional knowledge along with your incredible ability but, fully understand why some of the feedback and or comments toward the (Totally Inexperienced - PC-Correct statement) individuals may be considered an unpleasant comment to them, many - refusing to read any information regarding this subject.  And ... they all want to be spoon fed.  If they bothered to read the introduction presented, which clearly states this ... they would realize .-. Do a little reading before you ask Stupid Questions!  I totally agree with this intro statement!

If you are ever in the neighborhood or the San Antonio area, spend the day with me, enjoy the finest Texas BBQ and learn to shoot milk jugs at 1,000 to 1,700 yards.

Regards;

Thomas

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EGADS Thomas, any more butter and I won't be able to type! We routinely give each other a friendly hard time, it's a family kind of thing. We don't know each other well enough to offend me so don't worry about it. 

If you're going to get all gushy at me I won't tease you again. Okay? 

Where's the PDF?

Deb and I may get down that way one of these days, I'll let the forum know where and about when we're traveling, there are lots of folks I'd like to meet face to face.

What you shooting long distance? 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Well since Frosty said no cape that shot down my idea of him wearing a bear skin cape lol,

thomas_Tex, I wasn’t trying to pick at you, I  apologize if it came across like that,

I was more or less just messing with Frosty because a day or two ago  he told us all a funny story about his cat biting his toe, so the whole super hero thing was just me picking at him in fun, 

I wasn’t trying to make it sound like you said something mean about him, 

anyways I’d like to see your coffee can forge  too! 

 

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Frosty  yea - no problem with the teasing, it's OK!

Twisted Willow  I did not take it that way.  So ... no problem!

After doing a lot more reading on the forum, I was somewhat reluctant to post the picture.  I now feel a little embarrassed to present the basic concept picture I was playing with.  But - please keep in mind it was not intended for longevity.  All I really wanted to do ... was heat treat a few small pieces of steel (blades) for my hand crafted Japanese woodworking planes. [Another Project]  They call the blade an Iron for some reason.  So ... it was something low cost and just to play with for a short time.  Hopefully using some materials on hand, to keep the cost down and expand my heat treating knowledge a little bit more at the same time.

The Japanese wood plane is an essential tool used in making Japanese knife handles, which of course will be attached to the (Chef) Blades when completed.  That was the initial project, then somehow it expanded into making a small forge. 

Shooting

Most if not all the ranges around here only go out to 300 to 400 yards.  So - one has to look for a few that go out beyond that.  I usually shoot at 400 + yards using a bull barrel Savage 308.  By-The-Way 308 is an excellent round.  After 600 yards, that's where they separate the men from the boys.

Tiger Valley had one up to a mile (1760 yds) and was a nice one. It was East of Waco, that (2) Marine Snipers went in on.  Unfortunately the clientele was not able to support the rent payments.  So they no longer exist.  There are a few nice ones near Dallas and College Station.  Of course unless you get a invite to a private property owner.  Accurate Long Distance shooting is an Adrenalin Rush.

The long distance rifle is a Remington 300 Ultra Mag.  This one can reach out and touch a target a mile away.  Scopes are Mil Dot 6-24.  Mil Dot is the only way to go.  Reloading is another skill that requires absolute perfection.  As one grows older the accuracy of long range shooting skills tend to deteriorate with age.

Will the moderators allow pictures of non forge related items? or should I include an old Coal Forge Poker - to stir up the coals into the picture.

Thomas

 

 

Coffee Can Forge.pdf

 

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TW: Damascus isn't a radioactive cat so how would I turn super powered? Seriously just lifting my butt out of the recliner is getting difficult.

Thomas: Nice drawing! It's been a while since I saw an elevation with dimensions, angles, etc. Not the way I learned to draw but it's all there so I got it! That's like a breath of fresh air. Folks now days seem to thing a rendering conveys useful information rather than just a concept.

Sand and clay mix isn't good in a small forge. If you're thinking of it holding heat and cooling slowly for annealing you're partially correct, there just isn't enough to hold long enough. A larger can and a hard castable refractory on the other hand will mean a lot of thermal mass and long cool time. Especially if you insulate outside the can. 

Another heat treat furnace would be a simple brick pile using 3,000f hard fire brick and surrounding it with insulation. Almost any would work, perlite, Kaowool or lesser rockwool, insulating firebrick though expensive. Fiberglass insulation probably not but maybe.

I'm sure lots of guys who've been reading me discouraging folks from using hard firebrick at flame face in forges are probably wondering if a Star Trek bug is burrowing in my brain or something. You're looking for a furnace that can be controlled precisely and changes temp slowly. The greater thermal mass of hard brick will level temp fluctuations considerably and if you provide insulation on the outside it'll take all night to cool. 

This is also where a ribbon burner really shines, it'll heat the entire furnace more evenly, especially if you mount it at an angle to generate swirl in the forge atmosphere.

Make sense?

Frosty The Lucky.

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Frosty

Need and want to do ... a little more reading on the Forum.  (incredible amount of knowledge) Thinking of trying to use 1" Kaowool and applying a coating.  Don't know if I need a fire brick on the bottom though?  If you recall [cost is an issue], where do I stop spending?   Need to think about the coffee can forge a little more.  Meanwhile ... moving on - and closely looking at your 3/4" pipe T burner.  Very nicely designed and very well put together.  Having a major problem location a 1" x 1" x 3/4" reducing T.  I really don't want McMaster to poke my eyes out on the cost ... plus the shipping.  Started looking locally for Plumbing supply places.  Suspect it will take a while to locate one at a reasonable price.  It seems recently the prices on everything has exploded and getting worse by the day!

Thomas

 

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If you're thinking of making a 3/4" T then you're NOT thinking of a coffee can furnace, you're looking at around 300-350 cu/in. depending on shape. 

I haven't looked at prices but last 3/4" T I made cost about $12. not counting hose and regulator nor tools. You need the right drill bits, taps, etc. depending on how you configure the mig tip mounting fittings.

I was under the impression you wanted a single blade sized heat treat furnace/ forge. Lots of "makers" and internet "experts:rolleyes:" put a brick in the bottom of the forge and my over sized shop forge has split hard firebrick over 2 layers of 1" kaowool for the floor. It was the last time I wasted the money. 

If you want a forge that changes temp slowly and holds it evenly then lots of thermal mass in the liner is a good thing. It's going to cost in fuel though. It takes more fuel and time to heat it to a given temperature and being a poor insulator heat will conduct out through the forge shell and heat your shop. So it will take more fuel to keep it hot.

Make sense?

If you want a budget small scale forge then a bean can a wrap or kaowool and some Kastolite 30 will work a treat. Plaster the flame face maybe 3/8" - 1/2" thick and it'll have good thermal mass and not come to welding heat in 2 minutes or cool to ambient in 10. You can heat this, the improved, traditional bean can forge with a Bernzmatic soldering torch and if you get the hose adapter you can run it for a couple days on a 20lb. tank of propane. 

You see Bernzomatic soldering torches for a couple bucks at yard/garage/etc. sales all the time. I picked up my last 3 high pressure propane regulators and hoses for under $10ea. at yard/garage/etc. sales. 

Making even a T burner small enough for a single brick forge is a finicky job but it's a PITA for a bean can forge. By single brick I mean the chamber is the size of a brick, 2 1/4" x  4 1/2" x 9". This takes approximately 8 fire bricks minimum.

If you built a single brick pile forge from K-26 IFBs you could heat it with a Bernzomatic torch. A 1/2" T will heat it well above melting temp if you're not careful.

The problem you're running into is having things more than one way. You can have it: Cheap, easy, long lasting, economical, or HOT. Pick 2.

Blacksmithing doesn't start to get economical to practice until after you've invested enough for basic equipment and knowledge. 

You keep saying you want to do this on the cheap but I hate to tell you, you don't know enough to do it cheap and get a forge to do what you need. You're going to have to broaden your wants and just open the wallet. 

First though decide on the size and construction method. You can NOT plan one without making the decision. Then pick and stick to ONE set of plans.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Frosty

Thank you for your technical expertise, experience and advice, you are correct regarding my intentions of just playing around with a low cost (Cheap POS) forge set up.  I will be reconsidering this entire project.  Thank you for opening my eyes and visions of heat treating metal to reality.  After your kind and friendly advice  I'll be putting this project off for another time, in the distant future. 

However more then ten to fifteen years ago I did built a Ron Reil burner and very much enjoyed playing with it.  Well ... so much for the past!  This is also when I had a large metal lathe in my machine shop.  Technology has changed a great deal since then.

Regards;  Have a nice week! 

Thomas

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Thomas: It wasn't my intent to brush you off or discourage experimentation. If I came across that way it's my bad. I'll be more than happy to answer your questions and make suggestions. I'm more than good with experimenting for the sake of experimenting. Most of all I hope you stick around. 

Yours

Frosty The Lucky.

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Hi Frosty

No problem ... I started doing a little more reading and became even more interested in the design of the project.  I attribute that to you.  I do have a thirst for knowledge on subjects of interest.  I have read your previous post several times and apparently I have - rushed too fast too soon into the project with my over enthusiasm.

Below is a quote from your previous post, that I found to be basically the first phase of Engineering guidelines or rules.  Yes ... you re-opened my eyes, with them which I seemingly ignored.  I am fully aware of them, maybe age has dulled my thinking? (or too much Booze)  I consider these words of wisdom!

1. -First though decide on the size and construction method. You can NOT plan one without making the decision. Then pick and stick to ONE set of plans.

2.-The problem you're running into is having things more than one way. You can have it: Cheap, easy, long lasting, economical, or HOT.   Pick 2.

3.-You keep saying you want to do this on the cheap but I hate to tell you, you don't know enough to do it cheap and get a forge to do what you need. You're going to have to broaden your wants and just open the wallet. 

4.-Blacksmithing doesn't start to get economical to practice until after you've invested enough for basic equipment and knowledge. 

By-the -way - I do understand the properties of thermodynamics, regarding the principals of storing and reflecting of Heat.  (Along with efficiency)  Just need to brush up a little on it.  Prior to retirement I worked as a Microwave RF, Telecom, modulator and multiplexer Design Engineer.  ... Back in the early days of Ron Reil, I designed a program to calculate theoretical Burner Btu's, and then provided him with a copy.  He made it available to others and was also nice enough to credit my name in one of his early blogs.

Back to the original topic:

I really don't want to become a full-time Blacksmith forging various types of steel, or even forging Knife blades.  Previously (~ >20-25 yrs ago) I used the stock removal method and sent everything out for heat treating.  As time marches on; currently my only interest is now installing Basic to Semi-exotic handles on 25-30 Japanese kitchen knives which I have.  One of the primary tools used are; Japanese wooden woodworkers planes, which later I intend to build a few myself.  This style of planes was used hundreds of years ago with great success.  Once you understand the principals, they are fairly straight forward and not that hard to make or build.  Except for the Iron (Blade) part.  Which requires a bit of Japanese steel making knowledge for hand tools.  Very interesting subject!

Well ... your recent words have triggered a [re-examination and  - an interest on the subject] regarding the "basic forge".  I have too many unread books on this topic.  Yes! I'm back in the game of researching all methods currently used today, and throughout history.  How did our forefathers do it?  What mistakes did they make?  Interesting questions, at least for me.

Edison said it best that he didn't fail 1000 times trying to develop a light bulb, only he learned 1000 ways on how not to build one.

Bottom line:

- I still admire your teachings, knowledge and ability.  No offense taken on my current lack of knowledge on this subject.  You have rejuvenated my interest!  I thank you for that!  Yes ... I'm back entertaining you!

One other item, I have attached a picture of a simple two (soft fire brick) forge, using a propane torch which I think you mentioned earlier in a previous post.

Regards;

Thomas

2-Brick Forge.jpg

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Is herding cats worth the effort?

I remember how happy Ron was when he was able to present your BTU output program. That is so up his alley it's hard to describe. He and I don't talk much anymore, he wasn't suited to answering questions from people who hadn't bothered to read his burner plans. I sometimes get snappish when people recognize my name and expect me to walk them through a build from scratch. He and I started fooling with NA burners in the old email list days on Theforge.list. He had the advantage of being connected to the web through his job as a teacher, I logged on for the first time about 2 days after the web went public. We were talking maybe 3-4 days later.

Sorry, it brings back memories. We didn't have any kind of falling out, we just went different ways designing burners. Ron being Ron was looking for as close to perfect as he could make using off the shelf components. I tried and succeeded in building an effective burner that required a minimum of shop tools and skills. 

I didn't get to know Mike Porter until a couple years ago and we talk pretty often on Iforge. 

I lost track of the fact that you're more interested in the experiments than an actual final machine. I'm more than good with that, it's a favorite past time of mine. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Actually there are many examples out there where the actual discovery is made by a forgotten underling and the "supervisor" gets the credit, awards, honor, etc.  May I commend to your attention the recent awarding of the Copley Medal to Dame Jocelyn Bell Burnell for work done in 1967; I've also ran across a number of such examples mentioned in Bill Bryson's "The Body".

I think Edison needs more credit for the methods of research he used and perhaps share the credit more for some of the results.

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