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I Forge Iron

Working on my first forge. A question or dozen.


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Thank you VERY MUCH! I developed my opinion of his skill sets after watching about 1 minute but after your comment I went back and watched the rest. :o You could be right, he may be untrainable! I didn't see him do anything in a safe manner. I would've 86ed him with prejudice for waving a running angle grinder around his head! How about all the litter on the garage floor while he was welding. On and on, the list is too long to go into.

I can see why he disabled comments. 

Turby: You haven't built a forge like in the video have you? You started asking us questions first, right? If you hadn't learned you'd be asking how to make a train wreck furnace work, not talking to a bunch of curmudgeons who've been playing with fire and hitting things with hammers for a long LONG time. 

I don't know why Charles used red bricks in the mark iii thread but it's not a blue print, 3,000f hard firebrick works a treat. And yes, you'll burn them up after a while but not terribly quickly. 

A thing to note is how Charles tucked the tuyere pipe back into the brick so it's not in direct contact with the fire. You can extend that even farther if you wish but 3/4" - 1" black iron pipe is easy to come by and you can trim it as it burns off.

I wouldn't make the fire space 6" x 6" x 6" it defeats this type forge. A longish trench with the fire back and tuyere iron in the center allows you to lay long pieces in the fire's heart without having to angle it downwards steeply. To heat the center of a long piece in a 6x6x6 forge you'd have to build the fire well above the "pot" and charcoal ALL catches and burns so fuel consumption would go WAY higher than it should for the job. If that makes sense.

The type forge Charles turned into the JABOD is as ancient as humans heating and beating metal. They are in common use all over the world now, usually scraped in the ground and blown by a variety of bellows. A paper bag makes a perfectly workable bellows as does a piece of pipe and long grass tied to the end of a stick. 

If you try to develop a spec sheet for a JABOD you'll never get around to heating and beating steel. 

Yes, using modeling clay to test ideas for forging things is a thing. If you use different colors rolled thinnish and pressed into a "billet" you can experiment with damascus pattern development. You want stiff modeling clay and keep it cool so it move the same way hot iron does. It has a place in the modern blacksmith shop you betcha!

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

 

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Honestly, if you have any sheet metal laying around, just lay that on top of a couple of bricks, then pack your clay on top of that. 3” of clay (packed cat litter) will keep it from getting hot enough to cause any trouble. Even cement board would work. I’d say you could you plywood, but you’d want to be able to inspect it, not so easy inside the grill.

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2 hours ago, Frosty said:

You haven't built a forge like in the video have you? You started asking us questions first, right?

No, but I truly was going to prior to finding the grill, and somehow finding that grill resulted in me bothering to ask questions instead of applying literally the same concept as I initially intended. I'm really not sure exactly what made me think to look in to it more...

 

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

A thing to note is how Charles tucked the tuyere pipe back into the brick so it's not in direct contact with the fire. You can extend that even farther if you wish but 3/4" - 1" black iron pipe is easy to come by and you can trim it as it burns off.

I saw that, wasn't sure if it was intentional or not, but made perfect sense to me. Though I bought my pipe from HD, was rather pricey... I don't know of any scrap yards within a reasonable distance, only car junk yards of which there are plenty. But after I have a forge running, I'll be less pressed to go to stores as a rush. And it was purchased before joining IFI... 

 

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

I don't know why Charles used red bricks in the mark iii thread but it's not a blue print, 3,000f hard firebrick works a treat. And yes, you'll burn them up after a while but not terribly quickly. 

Because it's what he had lol, but he knows what he's doing... But it's sounding like I'm probably not going to be able to escape the use of bricks of any fashion. :(

 

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

A longish trench with the fire back and tuyere iron in the center allows you to lay long pieces in the fire's heart without having to angle it downwards steeply. To heat the center of a long piece in a 6x6x6 forge you'd have to build the fire well above the "pot" and charcoal ALL catches and burns so fuel consumption would go WAY higher than it should for the job. If that makes sense.

Now I'm back to being confused lol. I thought charcoal wanted a deep fire? 

 

 

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The reason for the confusion is people talk about different size and shapes of forges without stating what size or shape THEY are discussing.  It is like saying screwdriver without mentioning the shape of the bit being straight, phillips, star, torx, square, etc.

 

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This is what the firepot on the very first JABOD I made looked like. It worked well for over a year. It's just a trench dug in some clay I got near the creek behind my apartment building. After you get the first one built you'll see how devilishly simple they truly are. 

PnutPART_1611138721532_IMG_20190626_0918161.jpg.21218034d9d04d2fb818f47bef1335fe.jpg

PART_1611138742899_IMG_20190626_0914271.jpg

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1 minute ago, pnut said:

After you get the first one built you'll see how devilishly simple they truly are. 

I feel like that will indeed be the case... Just gotta get that first one under my belt lol. Tomorrow I'll drill the hole for the tuyere and maybe that'll give me more perspective. 

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3 hours ago, Turby333 said:

Now I'm back to being confused lol. I thought charcoal wanted a deep fire?

It does but there's no reason to make it deeper than necessary before you can lay your steel in it. A lot of the depth needs to be on TOP of the work. A deep round/square hole limits the size or angle you can lay irons in it without building well above the top. Say 6" under the stock and another 3 above it and you're burning a lot of fuel.

Consider Pnut's trench, 2" below the tuyere iron and 4 above it. The heart of the fire will be 2-" above the tuyere so there's already 2" or so fuel above the work and the piece can be heating in the middle of a be silly 8' length. The only place for the fire to spread is sideways into the trench. Keeping the fire clean is as simple as raking the ash and clinker sideways down the trench. 

Using fire brick for fire backs raises the sides of the trench directly over the tuyere allowing greater depth without making you angle the stock to reach it.

Clearer than mud yet?

Frosty The Lucky.

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1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Clearer than mud yet?

I think the light bulb just came on. Obviously won't be certain until I put my thoughts in to practice, but what you just said made some other post around here click. 

 

Also, I think I found my anvil. Still paying for it, but until I locate a scrap yard that isn't collection only, I think it'll do. A 13" section of I Beam (oddly that's just the size section they sell).

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When searching for an improvised anvil, you want something solid. It is often said here that if you have a piece of RR track that you're using as an anvil you should stand it on end to maximize the amount of mass under the hammer. In theory, you would stand the I beam on end for the same reason, but even the heavy walled beam is too thin to be used in that way. When used in the way you're planning a LOT of energy is dissipated into the I beam as it flexes at the web and as the whole "anvil" vibrates. You are also left with a very thin sweet spot where the web is.

To provide an extreme case that illustrates my point, suppose you had piece 1/8" sheet metal that was 24"x24" and another piece of round stock with a  3" diameter that's ~10" long. If I did my math right, the two pieces of steel weigh about the same. However, ask yourself, which would make for a better improvised anvil? Why?

This is just meant to be a thought exercise that might help you in your search for an improvised anvil. 

Save your money. Pick up cheap a sledge hammer head, take the handle off (or don't), set it in a stump (or wooden stand of some sort) and you'll be on your way.

 

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On 8/12/2021 at 12:53 AM, Turby333 said:

And what about using ceramic tile on the bottom of the grill

On 8/12/2021 at 1:58 AM, George N. M. said:

I's stay away from the ceramic tiles.  I don't think they would resist the heat if exposed to high temperatures.

There's one good use I've found for tile in my own forge. However, they are NOT anywhere close to the fire itself. In my own side-blast, I've put a few big chunks of heavy ceramic chimney liner over most of the sand fill around the firebowl. They do a great job of keeping the coal from getting mixed up in the sand, but they're easy to remove if I need to enlarge the bowl for a bigger fire. Since they're a couple of inches from the fire, I don't have to worry about them going bang.

 

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So the reason I used red brick (the soft old fashioned kind) is that they were lying around. I melt hard fire brick just as easy. 
the only place I really recommend placing brick is under the fire. Traditional English forges used flyash and clinker to fill the box, so in the face off loose fill the brick keeps you from digging to deal wile you clean out. 
the Mark III being designed to take down I wanted to be able to put the bricks in one bucket, the fill in another and the fuel in another. The share cat litter buckets stack well: 

min your case I still think a fire brick placed 4-5” below the hearth is good insurance. 

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5 hours ago, Turby333 said:

A 13" section of I Beam

Like Frazer said, I beam is terrible as an anvil. I had a pretty large heavy chunk before I actually started forging and would hammer some stuff on it. It was Loud, inefficient and I would recommend a sledgehammer head any day over I beam. Sledgehammers can be found all over and cheap if not free if you look in the right places. All depends where you go scrounging. Talk to people in construction. When they break a handle the will usually buy a whole new hammer rather than replace the handle. 

Also read the improvised anvil thread for Many other anvil options and mounting ideas. 

Thanks for posting the link Frazer. 

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Come on now; an I beam works fine as long as you cut off all the sections that do NOT have steel all the way to the base and use what's left.  Of course a fork lift tine, a weight from a piece of heavy earth moving machinery, or something SOLID will give you a lot more banging on hot iron for your buck...I see a lot of I-beam "anvils" on craigslist made by folks that are clueless and sold to folks that are clueless.

MarcoBorromeiForkLiftTineAnvil.jpg.6f43276cc094166d18095059a407dd0d.jpg

As a scrapyard is a problem GTTS---Go To The Source!  FInd a place that repairs tractors and dozers and ask about solid chunks of steel to use as an anvil from their bone yard or scrap bin.  (Doughnuts are a good way to break the ice; "Brown Pop" near closing on a Friday during a hot summer can be even better...)

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Don't loose hope so soon my friend! Even if you have to buy it new (the most convenient and therefore expensive means) a sledgehammer head can be had at most big box stores. You have dirt, a vessel of some sort to hold it*, an air delivery device*, fuel*. If you really wanted to you could probably have a fire and hot steel by the end of the day. Your first set up isn't going to be perfect. Mine sure wasn't (and it still isn't)!

The best way to learn is by doing. You can improve your setup as you go; figuring out what you need and what you don't.

There are very few true barriers to getting started, but you can overthink your way into building them up. Then you end in a perpetual design loop waiting for that "one last thing" you "need" to get started. Sometimes KISS is the best way. My first forge was a Weber grill lid, flipped upside down, firebrick, dirt, black iron pipe, 2 ball valves (added later for air control) and a hairdryer. I think I spent $15-20 since I (or my family members) had just about everything I needed laying around already.

* I assume you do anyway, and if not these things ave readily available

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Check out THIS THREAD, which has a lot of good ideas about RR track anvils.

Also, here's my own RR track anvil, which has a small horn and a hot-cut ground into the bottom flange and a fuller ground into the central web:

C182F50F-0721-4E00-BCA4-C2C438512E78.jpeg

Note the notches on the top rail of the stand, which allows this anvil to be used in two different configurations, as demonstrated here by my student Eva. First, vertical, using the top of the track as a flat face:

39676848-F252-437B-B3C3-79AF5357BEA4.jpeg

And horizontal, using one of the interior curves as a swage for upsetting:

C0DAC3A3-13E2-418D-809B-29B3BB3BCF8F.jpeg

(As you can see, she got better at keeping her elbow down.)

 

 

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Since I first made this, I’ve wired an old cast iron sash weight to the outside of each leg and wrapped some chain around the whole thing for additional mass and stability. Here’s Gandalfgreen hammering on the flat end:

AF2E4480-B785-49DC-8010-3FBCA94AC0FA.jpeg

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I will read over that thread next. Did some cleaning up on the edges but they are a mess... I like the multi use of your design though. 

 

For giggles I heated up a piece of scrap with my propane torch and smacked it with a painfully light claw hammer... maybe I just needed to hear that satisfying ding noise

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More or less trying to mimic your design, having a small horn and a hot cut for this one, but what's likely to happen is I'm gonna have a few of these things with different tools built in to it... at $10/ft for RR track, just feels like a good idea. And... shaping this anvil gives me some kind of metal work to pass the time before the move. 

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