Working on my first forge. A question or dozen.

[Turby333]

Firstly, hello all. I'm not sure how I ended up here to be honest, but now I'm too far down the rabbit hole to climb back out. It started with a simple angle grinder and saw blade making a knife... One thing lead to another, and I forged a knife out of a leaf spring at a friends house, ended up catching some scale in my hand and possibly xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx from beating the metal, and now I'm wanting to make my own forge so I can go at it on my own time (And move on to more than just blades). My friend just uses an off the shelf propane forge and 22lb cast iron anvil (Or is it an ASO from what I've read?) which was enough to forge a few nice knives, but I am not my friend... I have my heart set on using Charcoal (Something about it just feels... right...), and as a boo to me, also grabbing a 55lb ASO to start with... But anyways, enough introductions for now! On to the situation and the questions!

 

I don't really want to be on the ground anymore (Have dinked around with a very small trench forge and homemade charcoal which worked well enough to get the metal glowing nicely, but that's not where I want to be...) so, I have a gutted gas grill, 3 ft of 1" plumbing pipe (Which I unfortunately drilled 7 holes in thinking I was gonna be going bottom blast, but reading here made it pretty clear side blast was the way to go for charcoal...) Now, I'm perfectly fine with it being an elevated JABOD forge, but I do want it to be fairly safe as far as forges are concerned. My current idea is to fill the bottom of the grill with pea gravel, then sand above that, digging a hole that will be about 6" deep, with the pipe going in the side about 2" from the bottom of what will be my fire pot? to give the ash a place to go. (More parentesies!! I've accepted I am cursed when it comes to fire bricks, store bought, or made.... I've had 4 explode pretty much in my face, and a few others crumble, so I'm trying to avoid fire bricks if I can...) 

 

But back to safety... Would the heat coming off this melt the backing of the grill? And what about using ceramic tile on the bottom of the grill (Not the bottom, but to make it a little less deep...) Or better yet, could any of you post a drawing or send me to a decent video of someone using this type of setup? It's a weber genesis silver.

 

Thank you all for your potential replies.

[George N. M.]

Turby, you are about to get moderated for inappropriate language.  I suggest you immediately go back and edit your post to remove the sexual reference.  I'm sure you didn't want to offend but this is a family oriented sight and there is little sense of humor about sex, religion, or politics.  We don't want to have to explain things to a 10 year old who may be reading the site.  Also, some of our members are fairly young and of both genders.

Will respond to blacksmithing topics gladly.

GNM

[Turby333]

I do apologize. I just attempted to change that part to possibly the large amount of stress relief from beating the metal, however it... Wouldn't let me... I tried about 3 times and nothing. 

[George N. M.]

OK, at least you tried.  The moderators will probably remove it and send you a warning.

Yes, pounding hot metal and creating something that did not exist before you set your hand and mind to it is a great stress reliever.  It has helped get me through tough and stressful times for many years.  I believe that if more people did things with their hands, blacksmith, wood work, cook, sew, spin, weave, paint, sculpt, etc.  the mental health industry would have fewer clients.

IMO what you describe would work and not have any significant safety problems.  Just keep an eye on things as you use it.  If it looks like it is over heating back off.

I's stay away from the ceramic tiles.  I don't think they would resist the heat if exposed to high temperatures.

There are lots of various forge plans out there.  Just use common sense and err on the side of caution.

Also, a simple JABOD will let you get metal hot and forging without a lot of work and that is the point of the exercise, forging.  The forge is just a tool to get the metal soft.

Anyway, welcome aboard.  Read "Read This First" and post your general location in your profile.  It helps us give better answers if we know you are in the US, South Africa, or Sweden.  And keep it G rated. ;-)

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Turby333]

I got my warning and accept it. Spent a lot of time finding post here via google, but jumped the gun and didn't hit the read here first part. However, that's been done now. Won't happen again.

 

Thanks for the heads up with the tiles though. I had assumed since they require such a high heat to make, they could handle it. And I understand the forge is just a tool, I just have the problem of overcomplicating things lol. Before this, my hobby to get out of my head was mountain biking, but Texas weather, work, wife, kids, etc makes it hard for stars to align to get out. This seems like something I can make work regardless since it's in my own back yard, and a simple covering can allow me to play regardless of time or weather. I had the same issue when getting in to MTB... Eventually I learned to relax and just flow with it. The hardest part for me was just getting started. Tomorrow I will take pictures and edit them in to my ideas and hope I can be pointed to the more efficient/safer variant. In the meantime, good night. 

[Glenn]

Do not overcomplicate simple. 

JABOD is just a hole in the ground raised to a convent height.  Build a box, fill it with dirt, insert a 3/4 or 1 inch pipe from the side bout the height of a house brick on its side, raise the dirt 3-6 inches above the pipe, add fuel, fire and be happy.  Fuel does not make the fire hot, air makes the fire hot.  Gentle air works best.  You will be surprised how little air it takes to forge.

[Charles R. Stevens]

The JABOD forge stickies are a good place to start, the old grill is just a metal box. 
after that ask away, I know that my writing can be about as clear as mud but some of the others can interpret.

[ThomasPowers]

If weight is a concern; fill the bottom part with vermiculite and cover with a couple of inches of DIRT; clayey dirt is better but plain old DIRT works!  I use old adobe leftovers, (not stabilized, plain adobe.  Works for Japanese swords and Javanese Keris...)

Gravel you would need to pretest to make sure it doesn't form shrapnel.  Shoot even plain cheap clay kitty litter has been used!  (Do a search on:    Lively Washtub Forge    for examples a lot like you are using.

Now as to buying a cast iron ASO: WHY?  A chunk of steel from the scrapyard will work *better* and at my local scrapyard, will  cost about 20 USCents a pound.  Yes it won't look like a london pattern anvil; but the london pattern anvil has only been artound for about 1/10 the time blacksmithing has been around; folks have been forging everything from pattern welded and wootz blades to ornamental work and tools without using a london pattgern anvil.  If you are going to throw money around throw it towards a good post vise!

There are several good ABANA Affiliates in Texas and attending a few meetings with one can really accelerate you through the learning curve(s)!  If you are near El Paso, let me know and I can direct you to some smiths out that way.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

10 hours ago, Turby333 said:

I got my warning and accept it.

You are in good company, even us old salts have been warned on occasion. Sometimes over a typo or auto correct.

If you have a pottery supply store near, high alumina kiln shelving will work but why spend the money when a mixture of adobe works just as well and doesn't have to have the asphalt in it...

https://www.motherearthnews.com/green-homes/making-adobe-bricks-zmaz81mazraw

As far as an improvised anvil goes, if you have a heavy equipment repair shop near, check with them. Bulldozers and graders are made out of anvils. I picked this 110 pound counter weight for $35.00 U.S and forged a small bick for it out of 4130 sucker rod.

 

[Turby333]

43 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

If weight is a concern; 

It's not. Only using the grill because it's there. Eventually I'd like to do something more visually appealing and functional. (Which, tbh, will be another JABOD, just different box.)

 

46 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Gravel you would need to pretest to make sure it doesn't form shrapnel.  Shoot even plain cheap clay kitty litter has been used!  (Do a search on:    Lively Washtub Forge    for examples a lot like you are using.

Wow! Ok, I can certainly get some kitty litter. Will do some reading on the washtub forge you mentioned also! Thanks.

 

47 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Now as to buying a cast iron ASO: WHY?  A chunk of steel from the scrapyard will work *better* and at my local scrapyard, will  cost about 20 USCents a pound.  Yes it won't look like a london pattern anvil; but the london pattern anvil has only been artound for about 1/10 the time blacksmithing has been around; folks have been forging everything from pattern welded and wootz blades to ornamental work and tools without using a london pattgern anvil.  If you are going to throw money around throw it towards a good post vise!

Because I hadn't actually considered that. Glad I posted before buying. Will try to find something suitable! (Though it does raise questions that will require a lot more reading, such as how to get good curves without a horn. Though that may click once I'm actually attempting it) 

 

58 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

There are several good ABANA Affiliates in Texas and attending a few meetings with one can really accelerate you through the learning curve(s)!  If you are near El Paso, let me know and I can direct you to some smiths out that way.

I'm closer to the Denton/Sherman area unfortunately. Seems a lot less of everything happens up here lol, but I will look around.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

You are in good company, even us old salts have been warned on occasion. Sometimes over a typo or auto correct.

-snip-

And that is a good example of what I need to look for for an anvil, thank you. No pottery stores nearby, but I might be able to dig up something in the plethora of scrap yards.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Scrap yards are our friends, just remember "In rust we trust".

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Turby, glad to have you. You don't need a horn to forge curves, turn scrolls, hooks, etc. All that can be done over an edge or on the face, you don't even need a horn to true up a ring. It's a matter of skill at the anvil. Most anvils around the world don't have a horn and exquisite work is being done on smallish rectangular blocks of steel with a spike driven into the ground or log. 

RR rail makes an excellent anvil mounted on end for the depth of steel between the hammer and ground. An anvil doesn't need a face much larger than the hammer face. The web and flanges of the rail let you grind a number of necessary and handy bottom tools. If you run out of web and flange to grind you can flip it over and have a clean slate. 

Learning to use Iforge is learning curve that changes with updates to the OS. Everybody gets edited and spoken to now and then, a person doesn't get in trouble unless they make a habit of disregarding the rules. It takes dedication of intent to get banned, even getting moderated takes work.

Gravel isn't appropriate in a solid fuel forge, it's extra weight and more importantly trapped moisture in particles can result in steam explosions when it breaks boiling temp. 

What kind of "fire" bricks have you been using? If they're the ones you buy to make fireplaces, fire pits, etc. they are NOT rated to a high enough temp and will crumble or even explode, see explanation about gravel above. If you want to use fire brick buy 3,000f hard firebrick from the local masonry supply. NOT a big box store like Lowes or Home Depot. 

Any clayey dirt will work a treat, if there are rocks and pebbles in it sift it or rake it down a sloped piece of wood to separate as much as possible. Don't make mud, just enough moisture to compact hard is right. Too wet and it will shrink check as it dries, too little and it won't compact hard enough to hold it's shape. 

Experiment and settle on what works best for you, it's just a box of dirt after all. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[arkie]

Turby, there is a boat load of Texas members here on IFI.  Several in the N. TX and E. TX area, Austin, Houston, etc.  I don't know how you would search the membership to find them, but maybe someone else, Glenn, or another mod may be able to help you find them.

[Turby333]

Thanks, Frosty!

Since the above post, I've actually been looking a lot more in to other types of anvils, with RR track being high up on my list. My biggest misconception so far was thinking I needed a massive work surface to keep things flat, but reading and thinking on it more, I can see where I was wrong. I'm actually becoming more interested in an increasingly "primitive" set-up. (I can understand the appeal, but the ideas of power hammers and gas forges don't appeal to me as much as charcoal and a Turby hammer)

 

Thanks for the heads up on gravel also. Becoming increasingly glad I posted before going in. Ceramic tiles, gravel... Sounds like I was gonna make a giant bomb, though ideally the forge would be covered when not in use, but that won't combat the humidity. Not sure where I can find some proper clay, but regular dirt wouldn't be an issue. 

 

For the fire bricks, it's been a combination of ones people have made and box store ones. But ideally, I'd like to refrain from using them.

 

I was basing my ideas off of this video. But it seems like side blast would be more ideal for charcoal, so my mind is saying same concept, just change the tuyere to be higher, and not put it all the way through. But it seems pea stone isn't ideal. So maybe sand on the bottom, and dirt up top? Then I also think I need to replace my tuyere on a semi regular basis being side blast since the heat is going right to the edge of it. I'm gonna start rambling if I don't stop. So much reading today my head is starting to spin over something that's apparently not that complicated lol... And I still have just under 2 weeks before I can actually set up said forge (Moving...)

 

But ok, here's a VERY crude idea of what I'm thinking. Yellow being sand/dirt, black being pipe, at that length, with a hair dryer pointing the general direction of the pipe because charcoal doesn't need as much air it seems. 

 

Second picture might work better. Cutting the pipe down to the middle, and cutting a hole in the side to where the pipe rest on the table. 

[George N. M.]

Just an old geologist's comment about gravel:  For the application you are considering there is gravel and there is gravel.  How suitable is dependent on the source rock of the gravel.  Generally, sedimentary rocks would be the worst choice because of what Frosty mentioned.  They have more pore space that can have water trapped there.  Igneous and metamorphic rocks are better because they generally have less pore space.  High grade metamorphic rocks such as gneiss are best because they have been squeezed and heated to the point where there is little or no pore space.  Some igneous rocks can be good but some, such as some basalts, can have large pore spaces.

It you need weight dry sand would be OK but be careful about introducing water when quenching or darkening down a fire.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Turby333]

This is the stuff I have, just pea stones.That's... about all I know about rocks lol.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I have seen BBQ lava rock used as a fill.

[Glenn]

1 hour ago, Turby333 said:

My biggest misconception so far was thinking I needed a massive work surface to keep things flat,

This is a 2 pound hammer, 1/2 inch round stock and the end of a rr track.  The hammer can only move the metal directly under the face. If you use the flight deck of the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise as an anvil, you  can only move the metal directly under the face.

 

[Turby333]

9 minutes ago, Glenn said:

If you use the flight deck of the aircraft USS Enterprise as an anvil

Added to my bucket list.

Maybe the hardest part for me right now is all the theorycrafting instead of doing... But don't really want to start doing when I'm going to have to transport it in the very near future (Regarding how I'll set the forge up)

[Glenn]

Build a forge that burns fuel and can get metal hot enough to forge.  Orange and yellow are good colors for the metal.  This is a testing platform until you get enough time to research the design of your second forge.  

You can learn more by taking what you have read to the forge and trying it out than reading more material.  Your confidence and data base information will expand with each hammer blow.  

When time comes to move you can leave that forge behind, using that as an excuse to build the second forge at the new location.

This is where modeling clay is your friend.  A brink of clay is under $5 and moves just like metal under the hammer. Great stuff to practice and problem solve with, and requires no heat, no forge, and can be used inside the house, any time you want to try out something to see if it works.

Blacksmithing is all about having fun.  There are no mistakes, just learning experiences so you can improve and do better the next time.

[George N. M.]

Turby, it looks to me like either quartzite or marble, both metamorphic rocks.  Quartzite used to be sandstone, marble used to be limestone.  You can tell the difference by taking a sharp edge of a broken piece and trying to scratch a piece of glass.  If it easily scratches it is quartzite.  If it barely scratches or does not it is marble.  You can also do an acid test but the scratch test should be sufficient.

Both should have a "sugary" appearance on a broken face.

I would have few reservations about exposure to heat for either type but would prefer quartzite if I had the choice.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[Frosty]

Turby: I advise you to disregard what you saw in that video. It's a good example of why trying to learn from internet videos without enough knowledge to tell good from bad is such a losing proposition. The guy in the video doesn't know what he's talking about and has poor shop skills. I might be able to teach him to safely work in a metal shop but as of that video I wouldn't let him touch tools without direct supervision.

About not wanting to build a forge this close to moving. One of the BEST things about a JABOD is moving it, just dump the dirt and use the box to pack stuff to move. Tools, stock, etc. Hmmm? A little imaginative use of hinges and catches and you can fold the box up too.

Below is a link to Charles, "Markiii" JABOD thread. He did some refining to help new guys build a good working side blast forge on a minimum budget. It's a little complicated for my taste but it's an easy build and works a treat.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/55467-mark-iii-jabod-forge/

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

23 minutes ago, Frosty said:

The guy in the video doesn't know what he's talking about and has poor shop skills. I might be able to teach him to safely work in a metal shop but as of that video I wouldn't let him touch tools without direct supervision.

I doubt we could teach him anything. I didn't watch the video at first, but your post prompted me to go back and watch it. Good grief, I don't think adult supervision would do any good. I loved his term for a forge on several occasions was a furnace.

[Turby333]

1 hour ago, George N. M. said:

Both should have a "sugary" appearance on a broken face.

I would have few reservations about exposure to heat for either type but would prefer quartzite if I had the choice.

They are indeed sugary inside. 

 

So now I'm at what if I used those strictly as filler to fill the bottom of the grill (There's a few little holes from where things connect down there), sand on top of that (It's a big grill...), then go to dirt above the sand which is the layer the fire would actually be in? Would the heat really be traveling down through the sand and to the gravel to the point of possible explosion?

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Turby: I advise you to disregard what you saw in that video. It's a good example of why trying to learn from internet videos without enough knowledge to tell good from bad is such a losing proposition. The guy in the video doesn't know what he's talking about and has poor shop skills.

I understand. Started the same way when I picked up mountain biking... Watching videos and doing that, then later on finding people who actually knew what they were doing... Eventually got to where I can tell if it's worth watching in about 30 seconds. But for smithing, I've a long way to go... (Guess I didn't learn my lesson about the internet) I've been through the MarkIII thread more times than I care to admit lol. I've seen a lot of red bricks good, red bricks bad, but he's clearly using them and considering his post count here I assume he knows his stuff... But they are consumable I believe? Am I gonna go broke replacing the bricks and apparently tuyere? (What rate do they on average decompose/melt/crack/die?) What if I only made the fire pot with red brick, filling the rest with dirt? I mean I understand parts will eventually wear, but hopefully these parts last (Especially the tuyere) a decent amount of time.

 

2 hours ago, Glenn said:

This is where modeling clay is your friend

Wait. WHAT?! That's a thing!? Amazing! o.o

So, current plan is... Drill hole in the side of the grill, fill only the bottom with the pebbles to block off the tiny holes, add sand, make a red brick fire pot (I'm thinking 6" deep, 6" long and 6" wide?) with the 1" ID tuyere wedged in there somewhere above the bottom of the fire pot, fill the remaining area with either good dirt or cheap kitty litter (Curious about the smell... lol)  Perhaps a small gap between 2 bricks on the bottom for ash to fall?

Any arguments as to why I shouldn't do that? Other than I'm trying to make a spec sheet

On 7/13/2017 at 9:30 PM, Frosty said:

This is just a box of dirt and you aren't doing anything that needs a spec sheet

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Kitty litter should be the cheap unscented kind and definitely unused. Most are made out of bentonite clay.