Pat Masterson Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 Hey guys. I want to build a guillotine tool. If I were to use fork lift tine for the dies do you think I should re heat treat entirely after grinding in the shapes I want? Or do you think as is they won’t be so hard as to chip and be dangerous? I have little to no heat treat knowledge by the way lol. Won’t they get tempered back a bit from the heat from grinding also? Making them a bit softer… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 I THINK forklift tines are entirely too heavy for guillotine dies. I got a long lifetime's worth of guillotine tool stock from one semi leaf spring, even factoring in the areas with micro fractures. It's a bit over 1/2" thick and a PITA grinding some of the finer dies. Think of the base, frame and tracks. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeJustice Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 Fork lift tine is a bit to vague for a good answer. Those come in a variety of sizes, length, width and thickness. Thus the actual weight is over a large spectrum. Are you talking about 3" wide by 24" L? 6" wide, 60" length or perhaps some other monster tine? Perhaps you meant to say in your first post that you are considering a piece of one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Masterson Posted July 2, 2021 Author Share Posted July 2, 2021 Lol Yes a piece of tine. The one I got is about 4 inches wide and I was planning to take cuts from the section that’s about 1/2” to 3/4” thick for the dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeJustice Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 Well That is out of my wheelhouse but at least we got that question better defined. Back to you Frosty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 Those will indeed make for some serious dies. If you end up going for it you can choose to heat treat them or leave them in their as cut and ground condition. Either way will be fine IMHO. The thing I would consider is whatever size die you end up making is going to dictate the size of all your dies in the future. When you run out of the section that is ~1/2" - 3/4" thick you are going to need to either source another material that fits or do some SERIOUS grinding/forging to bring the other sections to that same dimension. Depending on how many sets of dies you're trying to make that might not be a big deal. The only dies I use often are a butchering set and a flat set for making tenons. Do you think the taper of the fork is going to be an issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 Taper on the fork will be an issue unless they are worked to the same size or you are willing to put up with "loose dies". As it's so simple to scrounge leaf springs, even heavy duty ones, I'd leave the tine for other uses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Masterson Posted July 3, 2021 Author Share Posted July 3, 2021 Very good point about the multiple dies Frazer. Butcher and flat dies for tenons is exactly what I had in mind but if it all goes together well (very big if) I know I’ll eventually want other dies. Thomas to your point about the leaf spring - I see what you’re saying. Even if I just got my hands on one decent sized one I’d probably have enough material to make all the dies I want and have them be uniform width right off the bat - I’m assuming your answer is yes but I’m going to ask anyway…would your opinion be the same about using them as is after grinding to shape without any heat treat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Masterson Posted July 3, 2021 Author Share Posted July 3, 2021 Correction that was Frazer’s opinion of using them as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 If you have a friend with a power hammer (or access to one somewhere, like an ABANA meet), see if you can spend some time with it breaking part of that tine down into a more manageable size. It would be a great source of material/stock for trading if you can work it down into something you could actually take a hand hammer to.. Of course there are uses for it in it's current state, but with access to a power hammer, it really opens up the possibilities for you. For the sake of simplicity, try the dies in their normalized condition. If you find they might benefit from heat treatment, harden the working end (not the struck end) and temper back to purple. See if that makes a difference for you. Experimentation = Good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 Upon further reflection, the Unit V rail anchors might be a viable option too if you can't easily acquire a leaf spring pack. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 One aspect of making large dies for a hand struck tool is that you lose the concentration of force and so less deformation occurs even if you move up to a larger hand hammer. Of course you can always use the larger dies as "Finishing dies" and rough it out with smaller ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Building on what Thomas pointed out, it's commonly overlooked that large masses require more energy to move. Simply put, the entire point of a guillotine tool is to help a solo smith working with hand hammers. Heavy top tooling defeats that purpose. There's a really old episode of "The Woodwrights shop" with Roy Underhill where he's visiting the Colonial Gettysburg blacksmith. The smith is shown cutting sheet metal with a really stubby little cold chisel. I thought it was short from a long life of grinding which got me wondering why a master smith with plenty of opportunity to make better tools would keep using something that short. Then it dawned on me that this master smith was getting more done with less work, by using the right tool for the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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