My chimney/hood/stack setup

[Steve Sells]

For all you know Frosty is a mod, most the staff here use MOD# accounts to do their jobs.

the point is you are a wonderful artist, but a lousey exhaust designer.  It is dangerous and you dont seem to understand that, and for the record I am staff,  but the last upgrade to the forum removed the visable tags from my profile; and I had thought about closing this thread to avoid more BS, but will allow it to finish itself

[kiddcaprix]

My comment about moderation was based on Frosty's comment of "Were this my forum I would've moderated your posts...".

I would like to know how "dangerous" my setup is that I don't seem to understand. I have 10" duct roughly 10' away from my fire source with at least 1" of air space around the pass thru.  Also, a SS plate seperating the combustible OSB from the main 10" duct. Both vertical pipes inside and out are substantially more than the 6" requirement that DuraVent specifies.  Short of it not being UL rated, nobody has said why this IS so dangerous.  How is my setup more dangerous than a thimble? I am open to all criticism and appreciate it.  I am all about constructive criticism as long it's constructive and I am learning from it. In no way am I trying to disrespect anyone and appreciate the input.  Nobody learns anything if all that is being posted is negative responses without a reason to why or how it's wrong.

Please feel free to close the post if you would like.  I am ok with that.  I apologize for any chaos I have caused. 

Kind regards,

Adam

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

3 hours ago, kiddcaprix said:

in Michigan

I believe this is the only mention of your location. For all we knew you could have been anywhere in the world that participates here on IFI. Hence the suggestion to edit your profile to show general location because we won't remember it once leaving this post.

[kiddcaprix]

Sorry, I must have missed the comment on editing my profile. Will update shortly. 

Thanks for the reminder.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I didn’t want to say anything since this topic has everyone pretty well on edge but I think I will go ahead and share a personal experience.  I’ve fought a flu fire caused by creosote build up from my wood stove in my shop as well as a burned out pipe that set the field on fire last winter, I was working in the shop and I started hearing a crackling sound and I looked around all over the shop looking for the sound but couldn’t find anything, so I walked outside looking for the sound and didn’t see anything, then I walked behind the shop and everything was on fire so I ran in the shop and closed the damper and then ran to grab a garden hose and a shovel and a fire extinguisher,  I started spraying and beating down the grass and brush that was on fire. After the fire was out half an hour later I looked for the cause and I found the elbow had burned or rotted out and when the creosote caught fire it was dumping fiery embers straight on the ground. I yanked out all the pipe next day and bought all new, then I made a habit of inspecting the pipe every week, this fall I’ll be installing all new pipe agin wether it needs it or not. My only saving grace was the fact there was no wind to fuel the fire and my building is concrete cinder block with 10 foot side walls. Otherwise the story would probably have ended differently. The crazy thing was a member of the local rural volunteer fire department was building fence across the field and he never saw a thing while I was frantically fight the fire. I’m not an expert on anything to do with inside forge set ups because all the forges I’ve made I’ve ran outside. I don’t know what happens in exhaust pipes that comes off coal forges but what I can tell you is it’s pretty scary being alone fighting a fire in the middle of nowhere eastern Oklahoma knowing that even if you call for help it’s 30 minutes away before the trucks show up. I’m not qualified to say what’s right or wrong but whatever you decide to do with your setup please take your safety, your family and others into consideration. I apologize if this post steps on anyone’s toes I just wanted to add my two cents. 
 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

A worthy two cents it is. Outside elbows will rust out, that is why the side sucker box goes straight out through the wall (heavy gauge steel) with a clean out and the stack goes straight up the outside wall. Modifying a proven design never works out well.

BP1048 Side Draft Chimney - BP 1000 Hofi Series - I Forge Iron

[kiddcaprix]

I love how simple and clean that side draft is and wanted to do something like it (studied that link for a while trying to see if I could get it to work). The location in the shop I had to work in along with the water cooled side draft forge didn't allow for me to do so.  Primarily the bosh tank on the back prohibits the straight out approach.  I may be able to modify my setup in the future to allow for such an exhaust.  Will have to study my forge a bit to see what I can do.

Thank you twistedwillow for the "two cents".  My time is limited in the shop and I don't get to spend much time forging at the moment so I will defiantly keep an eye on it as I go.  I have always been curious as to what the internal temps of the duct really is at certain areas along the exhaust.  I might build an Arduino setup with some thermocouples to watch the temps in different areas both inside and out.  Would also give me an early indication of temp rise if something were to happen such as your situation.  Could potentially automate fire suppression also based on "run away" temps.  Somebody might have done something like that already! 

Anyway, thanks again for the comments and advice.  I do appreciate it (whether is seems so or not)!  That's the problem with text, it's hard to get a sense of emotion, context, or social ques from it.  With that said, if anyone wants to talk over the phone to discuss things, I would love to chat.  PM me and I will give you my number.

Thanks,

Adam

[ThomasPowers]

Anybody have a range of tempilstiks they can mark their chimney to get an idea of temps?  Even forge welding my tilted 10'x10" stack gets down to "hand warmer" temps before exiting my shop wall.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I don’t know what a temilstik is I’ll have to check that out, but I did have those magnetic thermometers on the pipe, I was working on the other side of the shop so I didn’t see the temp rising, pipe got so hot that It burnt the paint off them and they fell off the pipe.

[JHCC]

"Tempilstik" is a brand of temperature-indicating marker; other brands are available as well. In a nutshell, they are basically crayons that melt at specific temperatures. For example, if you are preheating a piece of 4140 steel to 450°F before arc welding it, you take a 450° Tempilstik and rub it on the surface of the metal as you heat it. It won't leave a mark until it actually hits the target temperature.

I have a set of temperature-indicating sticks from another manufacturer that range from 250° up to 650°, if memory serves. I haven't fired up the coal forge in a while, but I'll try to remember to test the flue when I do.

(Also, a temperature of over 101°F can be a flu symptom, but that can be tested with a regular thermometer. Just remember to keep it under your tongue.)

[ThomasPowers]

Depending on the type of thermometer...

[Frosty]

In the late 90s or early 00s I was on the job in Anchorage, one of the guys and I were making the plow routes were clear of things that might damage the plow trucks or make a stinky mess. My cell phone rings and Deb's first words had me stopping on the shoulder hard enough the guy I'm working with looks frightened. 

"Hello sweetheart, what's up?," Deb says, "The stove pipe is orange, what do I do?"  "WHAT!? Say again!" In the back ground I can hear a roar. "The stove pipe is orange and it's getting close to the ceiling and it's making a sound like a torch! WHAT do I do?!"

"First, get the fire extinguisher next to the front door, crack the door of the stove just enough to point the nozzle in ad just give it little puffs. If you hold the trigger down it WILL blow burning embers out the door. Do you understand?" "Yes, I'm getting the extinguisher," she says. "GOOD, now hang up and call 911! Do it NOW!" She didn't hang up so I added, "When you've emptied the extinguisher get OUT OF THE HOUSE!" And I hung up on her. I jumped out of the pickup and told Jay to swap places, we're heading for my car. I was too worked up to drive safely.

I got on the radio to let dispatch know what was going on and why I was going home.  Jay threatened every speed limit on the way back and I was told later we had such great luck with the lights because police were blocking intersections and giving us the green. 

By time I got to the yard I was able to get Deb on the phone and the fire was out, the FD was checking everything and the emergency was over. I was able to drive home at a reasonable speed. 

It turned out the catalytic converter had stopped working and the stack creosoted up. Once the stack fire got going it it burned a little gap around one of the screws securing it to the stove flange so it had all the air it needed. 

Happily the Border Collie, Patch started barking when the stack started making funny noises and when Deb took a look the stack was starting to turn red. She shut the draft off and the stack started to whistle and get hotter. That's when she called me, by time I picked up the stack was orange. 

It was professionally installed, insulated double wall and it was ruined by the fire. Happily it shielded the house long enough for Deb to get it put out. The fire chief from Station 61, just 2.1 miles and a bit over 3 minutes lights and sirens from us. Was really happy the way Deb handled the fire but told her the FD trick for extinguishing run away stoves and stack fires. He took a decorative cup off the mantle, dipped a cup of water out of the bucket on the stove humidifying the air, tossed it in the stove door and slammed it shut. 

The water puts the fire out and the blast of steam shuts off the oxygen up the stack while making it all wet. Just keep tossing water in the door till it stops drawing air.

While he was dousing the stove and stack Deb said fire fighters were on the roof attacking the fire from the top. It was out but he lowered a length of chain down till it touched the stove jack and he swirled it around clearing the creosote. Then the guy on the roof lowered a scope to get a look at it's condition. The video is terrifying, the fire was burning through 2 layers of stainless steel and the rock wool insulation between them. The insulated, triple wall we had installed has a lifetime guarantee against ANY failure. If in 20 years it needs replacing it's on them. If a stack fire burns the house down they replace it. 

YEAH it was expensive but the people we bought it from and have sweep it twice a year keep telling us the stack is always clean. We upgraded stoves too, the replacement is a 3 burn zone Jotul and doesn't send smoke up the stack, just hot clean exhaust. The total cost was in excess of $8,000 and installation was free. 

I've installed plenty of wood stoves, there's a barrel stove in the shop now but I've only had one stack fire and don't want a repeat. Nobody deserves a stack fire. Deb had ours out in under 5 minutes and not counting the price of the new stove cost about $2,500 to replace the stove pipe alone. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

It’s definitely a scary thing to deal with. I’m glad she was able to get the fire out and the house was saved.
  One thing I wondered about on my fire was why the magnet thermometer fell off? Did the fire demagnetized the pipe? 
   On another note I burn red oak, white oak and hickory most of the time, I try to only burn seasoned wood but sometimes that’s hard to come by and I end up burning green wood which I’m sure now is part of my creosote problem.

What kind of wood do y’all burn in Alaska? 

[ThomasPowers]

We generally burn softwood out here and I clean the stack once to twice a year.

[Frosty]

Yes, the stack thermometer magnets fall off if they get too hot. I think it might be a warning?

We burn birch or dry spruce. Mostly birch but with the spruce bark beetles killing something like 90%+ of the spruce, dead dry spruce is everywhere and cheap enough we can feed more to the stove. We supplement the boiler with wood. 

We discovered a few years after buying the Jotul it was such a good deal because it'd been discontinued. Jotul still supports it but they have more efficient wood burners than ours. If you want to see smoke you have to go outside and look as soon as you light it or all you see is heat defraction at the cap. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[kiddcaprix]

Thank you for the story Frosty.  I'm glad nobody was injured or you lost the house.  I had a house fire in 2008. Lost everything including my 2 dogs.  I was out of the country living in England for about 5 months.  My wife was at work when it happened.  Nobody knows why the fire happened.  The fire marshal had no explanation and the insurance adjuster just wanted to be clear it wasn't arson.  I knew one of the volunteer fireman at the time and asked him what he thought started it, he believed it was electrical in the basement (all electric was to code).  Insurance covered everything and we built a new house and was in it a year later.  Was not fun and don't want to go through it again.    

Some of the confusion and controversy that has come from this thread might be coming from the fact that I had plumbed in the wood stove with the forge.  I agree that was a dumb idea and, as stated in a few of the first posts, was temporary and will be taken down shortly (just got the plug for the duct last night).  I had 2 fires in that setup for about 4hrs of run time total.  I love wood stoves, but hate the safety issues they pose.  That's the primary reason I switched to the infrared heaters.  I don't leave them on (a burning pilot light that is on all the time frightens me and FWIW, my house now is all electric and uses geothermal for HVAC).  I only turn them on while I am in the shop and when it is really cold out.  They kick off some major heat and are way easier to deal with than wood.  I will save my wood for the fire pit outside.  Thanks again for the comments and the stories.  A lot can be learned from experiences shared!

twistedwillow, with my experience with magnets here at work (I build prototypes), heat can demagnetize the magnets (even from hot melt). When people heat treat, you see them use magnets to check the material.  When it looses its magnetism it reaches a different state (can't remember from my metallurgy classes what state it was called, quick search calls it the "Curie" state or temperature).  Basically it's at least past a certain temp when it's demagnetized so one could quench after that without knowing temps exactly.  Just my thoughts.

Adam

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I’m sorry to hear about your dogs kiddcaprix that would be terrible to deal with living so far away. 

I didn’t see it or hear the thermometer fall I just found it afterwards so I was curious. Thanks for the info I’ll look it up.

I love my wood stove but When I get my new shop built I think I’m gonna use natural gas heat. Most of my appliances in the house are on natural gas and it’s fairly cheap to run with a lot less mess. 

[Frosty]

Sorry to hear about losing the house and dogs. Glad you weren't sleeping upstairs at the time. I've known a couple families that lost their house in fires, two log homes to their wood stoves running away on them. I get a little carried away talking about sketchy stove installs. 

Electrical fires are the leading cause I believe. The electrician who wired this house was NOT happy with me for specifying heavier wire and 20amp breakers rather than going with code minimum. It's harder to pull thicker wire, he had an electric puller and still complained.

Fired the first one when he said, "I'm not doing that." I apologized for wasting his time and called someone else. I fired a number of contractors building this place. ALL the built in mistakes are mine, MINE I TELL YOU!

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[ThomasPowers]

I still remember doing wiring with my dad 50 years ago; he was a EE and kept telling me that Code is the *MINIMUM*  allowed and we would go with a higher standard!

[Steve Sells]

I was wiring in the main feed for power on a stage job and the sound engineer was upset I used too large a wire for the feed, he said it will draw too much power

[ThomasPowers]

Ouch!  I'm going to use 220 as much as possible to keep things "cool" as the ambient temp doesn't help out here.  Motor for the power hammer(s), bader, 2hp drill press, etc.  Larger gauge wire run in EMT.  Like they say "Resistance is futile!"  My electrician was happy to have the lighting circuit separate from any of the receptacles that tools might be run from.  I never want a powertool hungry for my flesh to blow a breaker and leave me in the dark with it! 

Someone is going to get a nice shop sometime in the future!

[Frosty]

Hopefully the somebody doesn't have delusions about a "traditional" blacksmith shop and tear out all the wiring. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Do you really think that all of my relations, friends, students, minions will leave even enough scale trod into the dirt to show it *might* have been a blacksmith's shop.  I've asked for everything to be buried with me in a hidden grave in the desert and now I find my friends investigating plane towed magnetometers!

[anvil]

It's exciting to hear about your new shop! Rooting for it's completion.

I too have a new shop in the works. With covid, a hip replacement and cataract surgery it's been slow going. I will use a generator hard wired into a main breaker for power. All wiring is run thru metal tubing. Hoping for a late fall to early winter to be done 

[ThomasPowers]

My wife said an Electrical truck was parked in the road out front of my shop today---I hope the rain didn't scare them off! Setting/connecting the transformer and setting the meter are the last two things for me to have power in my shop! (+ a final inspection but my electrician said I could use power while waiting on that.)