Re-heat treating a poorly repaired anvil?

[Flynn]

Ok, here's the situation.  I have a 197# Isaac Hill anvil that has been welded and ground on and now the face won't bounce a super-ball, much less a ball bearing.  Here's what I'm thinking of doing... 

I have a tractor, a chain, an oxy-acetylene torch, and a creek.  Is there any reason NOT to heat the face up to cherry red and dunk it in the creek?

I'm just bouncing ideas around, no need to get anyone too excited. 

Thanks!

-Flynn

[Frosty]

There sure are: What alloy and carbon content is the weld deposition? Cherry red is WAY too cool even if the steel in the face can be hardened. Know how much oxy acet it'll take to bring 197 lbs of steel to critical temp? You MIGHT be able to isolate the face and not have to heat the entire anvil to critical but the temp differential won't be a lot.  

The technique you propose will work but it's not a trivial job. You can't "just dunk" the anvil and expect good results. There MUST be a strong enough flow of water across it to break the steam barrier that forms on the surface. It MUST remain in the quench until the entire face below tempering temperature. IF you're going to use the residual heat in the anvil's body to temper the face. If so you'll need to keep the anvil hanging over the creek while you sand the face clean enough to see the color run and return it to the creek when it's right. It'll need to stay in the creek until you're SURE there isn't enough residual heat in the anvil's heart to run the temper farther when you remove it.

Do you know what the correct temperature is for the alloy you're dealing with? The temper color (temperature)? 

It can be done, has been for centuries but by people who knew their materials and resource. Some of the major anvil makers used a flume and timed the quench according to the weight of the anvil and again when the temper had run properly. A creek can be made to work like a flume but we don't know how much flow it'll take to quench whatever the alloy is at a proper rate. Too fast and it'll be brittle, too slow and you could end up starting over. The thing that makes a flume a better tool than a creek is it can be directed on the face so the body doesn't "quench" it cools below the quench rate. This leaves enough residual heat to make running the temper quick enough you don't fall asleep waiting. 

I know about some of these things but have never done them and I'm too old to experiment on a bunch of other guy's anvils and figure it out. I've come up with a method I believe has an excellent chance of working without having to build a water tower or flume. Regardless we're talking having a little beach party while the fire brings a couple hundred lbs of steel and iron to critical. Then break it out of the fire position the flume and fire up the pump. The good thing is we'd be able to shut the pump off and check the temperature quickly and restart it. Once I liked the temper color shove it into the lake and start the pump flowing on it again. Once tempered you need to get the anvil's core chilled below temper heat or lose hardness in the face.

We're talking probably 4+ guys keeping a fire watch over night and a gang effort with the quench and temper. 

Like I say it would NOT be a trivial job. Sending one out to a heat treater will cost close to buying a new anvil.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Chelonian]

Do you have any photos of the anvil? They could help people give better advice.

[George N. M.]

The only thing I have to add to Frosty's comments is that it will take a LOT of gas to get the anvil to critical temperature even assuming that a single torch can put enough heat in faster than it will radiate heat out to get it to critical temperature.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Flynn]

The pics won’t be real helpful...  the previous owner ground it all over to ‘clean it up’, and the edges show some weld marks.  The welds appear to be done by a decent welder, but there’s no rebound to the face.  So right now I have an extremely effective doorstop.

I have no idea what steel the face is, nor do I know what steel the welder used.  I honestly don’t need this anvil, and I told the previous owner about the issues before I bought it for under a dollar/pound.

Worst case, I can put it out as a yard decoration.  Just thought it might be worth trying to harden it rather than let it go to waste.

 

[ThomasPowers]

The only person I know that did a full heat treat on a repaired anvil used the high pressure hose from the local  Volunteer Fire Department for the quenching to be able to blast through the Leidenfrost effect.  Described it in "Country Blacksmithing" Charles McRaven.

IF the "decent welder" didn't do a proper preheat and use the correct alloy rod for it then they were NOT a decent welder!  Just one that was trying to do stuff beyond their knowledge base!  Even expert welders can really mess up an anvil just because they don't know the details on how anvils are made and heat treated.

[pnut]

Is the rebound really that bad? I mean if it's just a little better than cast iron you could always sell it at cost to someone just starting out. 

Pnut

[anvil]

You dont give enough information on your anvil.  Does it or did it have a high carbon face and a wrought body? Or is it a one piece anvil? And pics would help if you can take good pics.  Without knowing the above no one can give you any good advice. If it had a high carbon face and its gone, it wont heat treat. 

[Flynn]

Well, I don't have any info on it aside from it being an Isaac Hill.  I don't know the construction method for Isaac Hill anvils, but they have handling holes and were made prior to 1850, so I assume they have a hardened steel face and a wrought body.  That is just from general knowledge about anvils, though.  I did assume that the folks that would know about heat treating anvils would also know these same things, so I didn't think it was valuable info.  

For this specific anvil, I don't know what type of steel Hill used for the face.  I don't know how much of the face is original and how much is weld.  I don't know what type of welding was done.  I can go get a pic a little later, but like I said, it won't add much to the conversation since we already know the maker.

Thanks for bringing up the Leidenfrost effect, I had not though of that and my creek does not have enough flow to overcome it where I'd be able to use the tractor to maneuver it.  I'll probably just clean it up and list it for cheap and educate the buyer on what they're getting.

[Latticino]

The anvil face will still be harder than red hot steel, so certainly work can be done on it.  Heavy sledge work may deform it earlier than a hardened face, and mis-hits will likely leave marks on the surface.  The real issue I've seen with welded face anvils that were not correctly heat treated during and afterwards is that more often than not the welding is done on the anvil edges that have been damaged.  The heat affected zone from these "repair" welds end up being brittle and can crack away removing even more of the edge than before the weld was made.  On the other hand I've seen weld repairs to the inner face of a preheated anvil (from gouges left by a cutting torch) hold up quite well (though the hardness in that particular area was a little affected).

Good luck whatever you decide.

[mutant]

There's an old 2 part video up on YouTube of a guy repairing a very large anvil. He used a large fire pit burning wood to heat it up. He also used a tractor to dunk it in a river to quench. Maybe there's something in the video that might help you.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i2fYo9zF_g

 

[ThomasPowers]

Sounds like he wasn't up on proper heat treating, just dunking it  in a river won't do a proper job due to the Leidenfrost effect!

Isaac Hill anvils are a brand of older English ones and have a wrought iron body with an applied HC face, most likely forge welded on in sections.  Telling the name gave all the needed info on construction.

[pnut]

1 hour ago, Flynn said:

I'll probably just clean it up and list it for cheap and educate the buyer on what they're getting.

I'm sure someone just starting out or who only has a rail anvil would be grateful to get it. 

Pnut

[anvil]

Lol, Thomas, I'm not a tool collector, just a mere mortal blacksmith making my way one blow at a time.  so the name was meaningless to me.  I could have assumed, but we all know what that means.  Thanks for the info as I never quit learning.

By the way,Turley with the help of two or three others forge welded a new face on an anvil and heat treated it as well at his school. I was not involved, but relaying his story for the benefit of all. The forge was a hole in the ground. Air supplied by a hand cranked blower and all needed water came from the frost free hydrant connected to city water just outside the shop. I believe the fuel was coal. 

Pics would help because we could see the actual shape. How much original face is gone, how much weld etc. It's just far easier to give good advice if we can see what you are dealing with. Without that I will suggest Robb Gunther's method for refacing most any anvil. It's far more sane and reliable than what you suggest. I believe it's ok to post this addy.

https://www.anvilmag.com/smith/anvilres.htm

[ThomasPowers]

I have an 1828 William Foster that needs a new face if you ever get a hankering to try a traditional refacing; could use a heel too.  (I suggested a traditional refacing as a Friday night demo at Quad-State and then moved 1500 miles away before they did it!)  Postman suggested I weld a slab of HC to a layer of real wrought iron and then do a WI to WI weld to apply the face to the anvil as WF anvils used rather low grade WI...

[Flynn]

Thanks for all the info, everyone.  FYI, the rebound is about 35% with my really good ball bearing.  Here are some photos, it's not pretty. 

[ThomasPowers]

That low seems to indicate a complete lack of hardening; perhaps it was in a fire?

[Flynn]

It's certainly possible...  I had assumed it was from the welding, but who knows.  The last owner didn't know it's history.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Here are my thoughts. See if there is anyone in the area with an induction furnace. A pancake type coil could heat just the top, and quickly enough that the body should quench it fast enough.

Or just hardface the top.

[anvil]

Interesting. It doesn't look that bad to me. It looks like only the edge was arc welded. 

If it went thru a fire, check the hardness with a file. If it's hard, then low bounce indicates a bad weld between the hc face and the wrought body. A sound(ring) check would help with that too. Also, check for bounce and ring at various places to see if it's the whole face or localized. If it's a good weld, then the Gunther method would solve the hardness problem altho doing it "by hammer in hand" would be fun to try. Remember, a bounce test checks two things. Hardness and a good weld between steel and wrought. If you can't ding the face with a normal hammer blow. I wouldn't worry about it. I'd just use it and call the low rebound be due to hehe ,, old age.

Thomas, I have two projects on my bucket list. One is to be involved in a smelt, preferably here at my new place. The other is to be involved with forge welding a new faceplate onto an old wrought anvil. If you were to organize either, I'd be tickled silly to be a part of either at your place or wherever.

[JHCC]

6 hours ago, Latticino said:

The anvil face will still be harder than red hot steel, so certainly work can be done on it. 

This is very true, whether you keep it yourself or pass it on to a new owner. The horn appears to be in good shape, and you've got the hardy hole for tooling. 197 lbs is not to be sneered at, especially considering how consistently we recommend big lumps of mild steel as improvised anvils. 

[anvil]

Absolutely

[Flynn]

Well, I was vaguely excited to take a torch to it and dump it in the creek, but you spoilsports have convinced me not to. 

I've already listed it up for sale (and explained the issues) for just enough to cover my expenses with it.

[ThomasPowers]

I'll keep you in mind if I do either anytime soon.  I've been collecting my scale hoping to do another smelt...

(Probably get bought by a flipper who wont tell a "naïve" buyer the issues...)