10" Stove/Chimney Pipe - Canada

[PurpleChair]

Good morning everyone, 

 

Long time lurker, first time poster! I'm in a real jam and am hoping someone can point me in the right direction please.

Very soon (this week if all goes according to plan!) I will have my coal/coke side draft forge delivered. The hood has a 10" hole for the chimney. The big catch here, I cannot find 10" chimney/stove pipe in Canada to save my life! I've checked the big box stores, I've checked the specialty fireplace/wood stove stores, I've called a few HVAC companies. 6" and 8", no problem! I can find those all day long. 10" ? Non-existent! AND 99% of the American websites won't ship to Canada. 

I'm located in Ontario, though of course I'm happy to pay shipping if it finds me what I need. 

The setup will be something like this:

Approx. 4ft of pipe needed in the shop, then it passes through a drywall ceiling to approx 6ft of attic, then passes through a metal shop roof and will need to stick 3ft out the top. Trying to do a perfectly straight shot up without any bends. 

If any of you good folks have any ideas on my chimney, the help would be appreciated! I'm losing my mind trying to find 10" pipe! 

 

Thanks all!

[Latticino]

It is possible you are looking for the wrong thing.  Any HVAC sheetmetal fabricator should be able to set you up with either 10" spiral round duct (costly) or 10" round duct with a Pittsburg seam (longitudinal, snaplock seam - relatively cheap).  You shouldn't need a Type B, double wall, chimney vent (very expensive) for the exhaust from a forge hood.  However, the big issue comes when you are trying to make a penetration to the exterior of your shop.  With conventional round ductwork you will need to have something on the order of a 18" separation from any combustible materials.  You will need what is known as an engineered thimble for your ceiling, roof or wall penetration (unless your shop is a concrete building or steel Quonset hut.  Double wall, insulated duct, can often be purchased only requiring a 1" clearance.

I'm in upstate NY and working towards getting my 10" flue installed as well.  Once I make arrangements I could try to help you out with the duct, but suspect shipping will be extremely prohibitive.  Good luck.

[ZBarrett]

Get the stuff with a seem and put 6" together.  Or a 6 and a 4 if you have to have 10.  That's what I did.

[Frazer]

I'm going through this now here in the US. I had to call all over the place to find a company that would even do the installation. The reason being that once you get up into 10-12" stove pipe that's going to be installed on a non-UL listed appliance, you are almost in the realm of commercial grade materials. And outside of the "normal" for most residential installers.

The question is do you plan to do your installation to code? I think WETT is for wood burning stoves, but you may have a more formal/specific code for your area. Even if you don't plan to follow that to a T, you should at least familiarize yourself with the regulations. Insurance is another topic, but lets just say they will expect to see a building permit in the event of a claim. 

I actually think Canada is a little less strict about solid fuel burning appliances than the US, so you have that going for you.

Sorry, none of that actually answers your question. I got the DuraTech 10" chimney pipe, galvalume up to the roof penetration and SS after. There are other systems from the same manufacturer (DuraVent) that are less expensive, but they are for masonry fireplaces and need to be enclosed in a chase. DuraVent products were the only ones I could get in my area.

You may be able to replace the section inside with some other version of pipe mentioned above if you're doing the installation yourself. But if you're looking to have someone put it in for you, they will probably require you to stick with one system because that is what the installation instructions say to do.

I did do a quick Google search: "10 inch double walled stove pipe Canada" and there are options for you. Good luck.

[PurpleChair]

1 hour ago, Latticino said:

It is possible you are looking for the wrong thing.  Any HVAC sheetmetal fabricator should be able to set you up with either 10" spiral round duct (costly) or 10" round duct with a Pittsburg seam (longitudinal, snaplock seam - relatively cheap). 

I was wondering this...I really don't know what kind of heat is thrown through the chimney on these forges. Can spiral duct handle the heat? 

[ZBarrett]

Spiral duct is galvanized, it all depends on the heat you have going through it, for safety reasons stove pipe would be best

[PurpleChair]

2 minutes ago, Frazer said:

I did do a quick Google search: "10 inch double walled stove pipe Canada" and there are options for you. Good luck.

I'm not seeing anything with those results. Yeah some pages come up, but if you browse through them...it's all 8" at best. 

Just now, ZBarrett said:

Spiral duct is galvanized, it all depends on the heat you have going through it.

Aye, this is where I'm at a loss. I really don't know how hot the air is that comes off the fire. My hood is four feet tall by three feet wide and is a side draft. So really, the "chimney" is four feet up the hood before it starts. 

[Frazer]

The chimney is drawing a lot of air along with the smoke so the temperature of the flue gasses isn't as hot as is would be with a smaller pipe size. The trouble is that coal smoke is acidic. I believe both the US and Canada require a stainless inner wall for coal.

Yea, I looked through them and saw that, my bad. Using two smaller stacks is an option, I would try talking to some companies about what the best way to do that might be. You might at least be able to get the ball rolling.

[Latticino]

57 minutes ago, Frazer said:

I believe both the US and Canada require a stainless inner wall for coal

I'm not sure where you are getting this from.  Last time I checked the code I didn't see anything specific for coal burning appliances.  I also believe that the "acidic" nature of coal smoke only comes into play once the sulfur content of the coal comes into contact with moisture and creates sulfuric acid, but I could be wrong about that.  Shouldn't be happening inside your flue in any case.  

[pnut]

It's pretty easy to make it yourself. All you need to do is fold the edges in opposing directions so they'll grab each other. You could do it over the edge of a workbench with a hammer. 

Pnut

[George N. M.]

The amount of sulfur in any particular batch of coal will vary widely depending on what deposit it was mined from.  Some coals in the eastern US are very high in sulfur and others, particularly coals mined in the west, have very low sulfur content.  I, too, am unaware of a requirement for stainless steel for anything coal burning in any of the uniform codes.  However, that does not mean that some local or state jurisdiction could not have added it for their area.  Also, the main problem with high sulfur coal as I have always understood it is not that it causes corrosion and erosion within anything burning coal but that the sulfur in the smoke combines with water in the atmosphere causing acid raid which damages the environment.

I suggest that you check with your local building or fire department to see if there is a local requirement and ask for the citation to the particular section.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[PurpleChair]

So here's a question...do I HAVE to have insulated/double walled etc. in the attic and roof portion of the garage? Would it still work well if I didn't ? Obviously still using a shield to keep attic insulation and drywall away from the pipe. 

[Glenn]

Check your local building codes.

[PurpleChair]

Sure, but there really isn't a code for "forges in a detached workshop" . I'm asking from a functional standpoint....

[Glenn]

Then check for the nearest code that might apply. 

Depending on where in the world you live, the local fire department may be able to help. 

[BillyBones]

Glenn, beat me to it.

Local codes here say no, but you have to have a much larger clearance for single wall as to class A pipe.

You can call local building inspector or fireman. 

 

[PurpleChair]

3 minutes ago, Glenn said:

Then check for the nearest code that might apply. 

Depending on where in the world you live, the local fire department may be able to help. 

Fair point! And noted. I'll keep making calls. Still haven't been able to find the right pipe anyway 

[Frazer]

Latticino, this doesn't exactly answer your question, but NFPA 211 13.4.1.2 

Quote

Galvanized steel pipe cannot be used for solid fuel burning appliances.

This does not specifically call for stainless and perhaps I am mistaken in saying that it is required. This line even seems contradictory to "standard practices". So I read that as *no galvanized pipe that is not designed for the purpose" I mean, what is a chimney but a long, often galvanized, pipe? Anyway, the way my town looks at it, this is a high temperature, solid fuel appliance burning coal so it requires stainless.

Anecdotally, every 10" "all fuel" rated pipe I have come across has a stainless steel inner wall. They also have this line (or something similar) in the specs:

"UL Listed to UL 103 and ULC S604 standards (MH7399) (Stainless steel outer wall required for installation in Canada.)"

This makes me think there might be something in CSA B365 (Canada's version of NFPA 211) with regards to stainless but I don't have access to that.

1 hour ago, Latticino said:

Shouldn't be happening inside your flue in any case

I don't think the issue is moisture while the chimney is in operation. However sulfurous buildup will line the chimney over time. Condensation from the air can collect there overnight, etc. when the forge is not running, potentially leading to faster corrosion over time? I'm only speculating as to what the rational of my town might be.. That or they just don't like coal.

--

Like you said Mr Chair, forges are certainly not called out by any code. Leaving it very much so open to interpretation both by the code office and (I think more importantly) your home insurance. 

It really is a rats nest depending on where you live and who you talk to on any given day. I don't want to scare you off by getting way off in the weeds with respect to the tangled mess of regulations and interpretations of them. Especially since your question was "where can I find...?" not "what's allowed?". 

[Glenn]

Do not expect people to know the specific code for forge as not many people put a forge in an outbuilding these days.  They may have to do a bit of research to even find something close.

[Frosty]

28 minutes ago, PurpleChair said:

Sure, but there really isn't a code for "forges in a detached workshop" . I'm asking from a functional standpoint....

Oh course not. As Glenn says nobody puts coal forges in outbuildings often enough to write codes. The best you're going to find is for "stove pipe, wall and roof penetration." Don't make us TELL you you may have to word a search or request differently. 

Your questions are rapidly convincing me you should save your money and have a professional do the installation or choose a different hobby. Maybe move the forge outside, far enough from flammables to not be a problem.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

4' above the connection to my woodstove  I can boil water on it's 6" stack.  4' above the lower opening on my coal forge I can warm my hands on the side  of it's 10" stack when it's cold out.  Wood stoves and coal forges ARE VERY DIFFERENT; but codes usually don't know anything about that.

Unfortunately you are required to meet the codes for your area.  What did the other Canadian smiths tell you about how they did their chimneys?  Much better info than asking folk from places like rural New Mexico, USA, where I just stuck a piece of galvanized 10" spiral seamed duct out a hole that was already in my wall (was a chimney penetration from when the sheet metal had been a roof.) 

IIRC  there is an active Ontario Blacksmithing organization, aha: https://ontarioblacksmiths.ca/   I bet they can help!

[Frazer]

It is an undoubtedly strange request, but I'm sure they'll find applicable sections faster than you might think. There are catch-alls and blanket terms such as "any unlisted appliance". A forge very quickly falls into that category. 

People in the business know the code and it's being somewhat open to interpretation allows them (and you) to get around some of the vague wording such as the infamous:

13.2.4 "Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any garage" 

Canada's version clarifies this by saying:

CSA B365 Section 3.3: "An appliance shall not be installed in a location where a corrosive atmosphere, flammable gas or vapour, combustible dust, or combustible fibres may be present. An appliance may be installed in a (a) storage or residential garage, provided that the appliance is mounted at least 450 mm (18 in) above floor level and protected against physical damage; ..."

--

Ok, ok, I'm done. Now what was your question again? 

I would keep calling companies trying to spec parts. Maybe try using another browser too, Chrome clutters things up with sponsored content and a bunch of useless info sometimes.

If all else fails, do two 5 or 6" stacks that join up to your hood.

[PurpleChair]

THank you all for the help (except for the "find a new hobby" comment, which guess what? Isn't helpful by any stretch. . . if everyone who was learning something new wasn't allowed to ask questions, the world would be a pretty stagnant place). 

 

I appreciate the guidance and believe I have all I need. Thanks all. 

[Glenn]

 

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Your questions are rapidly convincing me you should save your money and have a professional do the installation or choose a different hobby.

Frosty's comment is about giving up before you use the advice and references provided.  For instance, did you find any building codes that are close to a forge in an outbuilding?  Did you speak with the local fire department or have then come out, view what you are trying to do, and make suggestions?  Did you consult with a professional about a chimney installation in your out building?  

Have you looked at BP1048 Side Draft Chimney?  It is not straight up but works. 

Without a little leg work on your part, you do not know the cost.  

If you choose not to pursue options, then it is YOU that has given up on the project.   

[pnut]

I found a place called Rona that has some when I searched 10 in flue pipe for sale near Ontario Canada. It's rather expensive though. I will send you a pm with the link. 

Pnut