First Forge Help

[Eridanus21]

Hi all, I am new to blacksmithing this is my first forge. The forge is a propane tank lined with 2 layers of ceramic fiber blanket, 15 lbs refractory, and a layer of metrikote (bought and followed instructions from Wayne's website). I am using firebricks to block of the back port and about 3/4ths of the main port. I am running 2 prebuilt 1" T style burners with a 0-20 psi regulator. This is the description of the burners from ebay - (air choke, 3 way tee with 2 mouth, feed tube is 8" long ,3/4" thread , outer diameter is 1", flame cone on the bottom is 1-15/16"). I would like to try forge welding in the future but can not seem to get the forge up that high, the highest I can get it is low 1900's. 

I 3D printed cone inserts and casted refractory around them, the cone diameter starts at 1" and ends at 1.5". Typing this out I just realized the burners came with 2" cones on them so maybe this is the problem?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

[Buzzkill]

I hate to tell you this, but those burners appear to be substandard.  I found some pics of those on ebay, and the flames shown in the pictures leave a lot to be desired.  If those are indeed 1" burners and you used Wayne's plans, then a single one of those burners should be overkill for that size of forge if they were of good quality.  Two of them in a forge that size is ridiculously overpowered.  What I saw was extremely rich flames, which translates to lower temperatures and a LOT of wasted fuel.  Then there's the risk from excessive carbon monoxide production.

The good news is that if you followed Wayne's plans you should have a well constructed forge.  Assuming the regulator and hose are propane rated you are good there as well.  All you need is one (or two, depending on the size) well constructed burner and you are in good shape.  If you have a few tools and some basic shop skills you can make your own burners inexpensively.

Instructions for making some reliable efficient burners are here:

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/43976-t-burner-illustrated-directions/

 

As a bonus, you get to troubleshoot any problems you may have with the designer of the burner.   I don't know if we can realistically help you modify the burners you have now cheaper than just buying the needed parts and building your own burners.  We can help you get a hot forge, but not with those burners in their current condition.

[Mikey98118]

Did you miss that there is a dedicated thread for burners made with 3D printing? AFB just happens to make the hottest burners around. Maybe you should ask him your questions?

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Eridanus, glad to have you. 

I can't tell much by our description of the burners, if you'd known enough about burners to know how to describe one you wouldn't have purchased those. Unfortunately there are a LOT of unscrupulous people who have taken the easy to build T burner plans and are making them to sell. Unfortunately  most of them, like the guy who cheated you don't understand how they work and so just take your money. 

A properly built T burner won't have a choke, once tuned it remains tuned regardless of propane psi. 

Please, PLEASE no videos, they don't show anything worth the bandwidth. I can see everything I needed in your first still. What I need a look at are the burners from the outside, reasonably close but with the whole burner in the pic. Take the chokes off or open them all the way and take a pic through the air intake ports so I can get a look at the jet position.

Get a pic of the " flame cones," please don't forget a pic of those. They're known as flares amongst people familiar with home built burners. 

Do you have any idea what diameter the propane orifice is? Is there a mig tip or did the maker drill a plug or cap some such?

We'll try and make those work but be prepared it may be easier and cost less to just build one right instead of correcting a host of mistakes. 

If you followed the forge plans on Wayne's site reasonably well, you'll have a good working forge when we're done with you.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[ThomasPowers]

Note that if you need to measure an orifice, a set of O-A welding tip cleaners are sized and so can be used to get a approximation of the size.

[Eridanus21]

That's what I get for cutting corners, live and learn lol. I think building new is the way to go, I picked up the first round of supplies and ordered some drills/taps. I'm going to add a pressure gauge and idle circuit while I'm at it. I've used this site for information every step of my smithing journey, thank you guys for everything you do. Ill post pictures as soon as I make some progress!

 

[Frosty]

Put a paper bag or duct tape over the pressure gauge until you get them tuned and learn how to run them by eye and ear. Pressure gauges aren't worth the money until you are doing tasks that require presetting the forge for temperature before lighting it. 

Honest, more guys screw themselves reading the gauges and trying to follow other users pressure recommendations. IGNORE THE GAUGE or better yet don't install it until you know how to use your forge!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Eridanus21]

I finished up the plumbing part and checked it with soapy water, no leaks. Fired it up and bright orange was the hottest I could get still. I noticed one of the burners is slightly greener than the other. I think trimming the mig tips 1/8th inch is the next step? I didn't notice any problems but I was wondering what method and how tight to screw the mig tip in? I used pliers carefully and got it snug but not cranked. I did not use teflon tape in the mig tip but was wondering if there would be any benefit?

[Frosty]

Yeah, trim them 1/16", debur with a torch file and test until they get close to tuned then start taking minute amounts off with sand paper till they're right. They'll get REALLY loud when they start getting close. I mean SCREAMING SHREAKING LOUD. The flame will start to get more clear too.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

It would be good to turn them both 90 degrees too.

[Eridanus21]

I trimmed off 1/16" with a dremel, sanded smooth, and de burred, I don't have a torch file so I used a sharp scribe and triple checked to make sure all the bur was gone. I didn't notice any huge difference. I filed a 32nd and tried them, then another 32nd. Cone got a little more sharp and loud, Front flame still a little greener than rear. after about 25 minutes the temperature topped out at 1,979. The burners are louder and have a small hiss to them. I am running the forge at what I would guess is about 5-8 psi, about 1/3rd of the regulator open. How much dragons breath is too much?

I think I might use a round file and make the cones in the refractory a little wider.  Should I try taking off more of the mig tip? I spent extra time trying to make sure there was no bur but maybe I need a torch file.

I will make sure to turn them 90 degrees also, good idea.

 

Thanks

[Mikey98118]

A set of torch tip cleaners costs as little as $2.50 through Amazon, or down at your local welding supply store. Trying to make an in run around them makes no sense.

[Eridanus21]

They didn't have torch tip cleaners at the last hardware store I was at, I'm going to pick some up today.

[Eridanus21]

Got the torch tip cleaner, trimmed a 16th inch off the mig tip, then an 8th, then another, then another until I was left with a small nub. Every time it got louder, longer, and sharper. After 20 minutes (at around 8 PSI) with a new tank of propane still bright orange is the highest I could get metal to go. A good forge will get to welding temps in under 20 minutes right?

Time for a different size mig tip? I think it is still running rich so I would guess a smaller one?

[Frosty]

No idea, what size are they now? You don't understand GRADUAL do you? Trimming 1/6" is a lot at a time and you went from a large adjustment to a silly 1/8", then to toss them in the oh well pile.

Don't try to buy welding supplies at a hardware store, try a WELDING SUPPLY for welding supplies, I've never been in one that didn't have a selection of torch files. 

The same advice goes for buying plumbing fittings, do NOT expect a hardware store to have a good selection of brass fittings, a PLUMBING or HVAC supply deals with brass and copper fittings as daily business.

Have you compared the description of your burners with a proven, FUNCTIONAL 3/4" T burner in the T burner directions I posted? Whoever made this one listed the OD of the mixing tube and got the length for a 1" as well. Clueless, if s/he got a good flame it was pure luck. 

Next time you need to know what size a mig contact tip is, read it off the side. Unless you buy low level brand X at a hardware store the specs are printed on each one. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

If you enlarge the parts photo, the misalignment in the threads, that throw the mixing tubes out of square, is plain. He will need to bend the MIG tip in at least one of the burners before shortening it; probably both of them. Otherwise I don't think he will ever be able to tune them properly.

[Eridanus21]

They are about 1/4" now, I wasn't seeing any significant change in the flames so I started taking more off because I saw someone have success with it on a frosty t on YouTube. 

Gradually, I took off amounts in this order and tested them in between every trim 1/16", 1/32", sanded, sanded, 1/32", 1/32", 1/16", 1/8", 1/8", 1/8". I have extra mig tips and thought what could it hurt if I take these too short and have to replace them.

One of the threads I did manage to screw up a few degrees off center somehow but the other is fine, I figured if 1 of these burners is enough for this forge I could get away with one not being perfect. (Dumb I know)

Most modern hardware stores have a decent enough selection of brass fittings for my application and a torch file, though I do see your point.

I bought 1"x 3/4" T's and 3/4" x 6" nipples as the build plans call for.

At the end of the day I'm just a hobbyist trying to forge weld, I don't see a benefit of posting here so I will stumble around until I figure it out or I'll buy some prebuilt.

[pnut]

You do realize you were getting advice from the Frosty who designed the burners don't you? I doubt you'll find someone who knows more about Frosty t burners than Frosty himself or Mikey98118 the author of the book Burners for forges Furnaces and Kilns. Your choice though. 

Pnut

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, Eridanus21 said:

At the end of the day I'm just a hobbyist trying to forge weld, I don't see a benefit of posting here so I will stumble around until I figure it out or I'll buy some prebuilt.

My intent wasn't to drive you off but if you don't want my help you can feel free to say so. You won't hurt my feelings and I won't tell you to pound sand if you ask advice later. 

I understand you having poor results trying to make most anything from youtube videos, we spend too much time helping folks unlearn mistakes they "learned" on youtube. 

I'd like to give you a hand but do NOT expect me to sugar coat things, if you're doing something wrong I'll say so. 

Pease, don't think I'm apologizing, I was just talking to you straight. I'm an hobbyist and developed the T burner so folks with minimal shop skills and tools could make an effective burner for not much. 

 If you'd rather stumble around on Youtube it's your choice. Makes no difference to me.

Frosty The Lucky.