How do old anvils stack up against new anvils ?

[BartW]

Hello; 

 

In my little workshop, I have a couple anvils mounted. Mostly for giving classes, I essentially use just one.

But when I recently aquired a really old anvil; and found out all others are cast tool steel, I'm kinda curious what I should expect in performance difference.

Contenders :

This is the one I use all the time (altough I got 2 of 'm): 

This anvil is on a heavy tripod; and gets used mostly in teaching situations:

And this one is recently added :

 

All three are essentially on a heavy steel tripod, and clamped down really hard.

The oldest anvil is the most massive & heavy, but you could argue it's also the "weakest" construction, as the actual hard steel is only the top layer. Fun fact; the cart under the skoda above is the excact cart that broke when I put this anvil on it; and the foot of the 1908 anvil is almost as big as the cart, so you have a comparison in size right there.

I tested hardness too.

The skoda at 300 pounds is face: HRC 62-63 bottom HRC 55.

The UAT at 242 pounds is face HRC 60, Feet HRC 50.

The 1908 600'ish (used to be 700) pound old anvil's face is around HRC 55, the rest is .. well wrought Iron. Even the HRC 40 file bites it.

So I wonder; how would these stack up in use ? Would mass be more important than steel quality ? Or having more mass directly under the hammer ? Would you even notice the difference ?

 

friendly greetings, Bart

 

[pnut]

At that size will you really be able to tell a difference? I'd imagine that the WI body might swale over time and under very hard working conditions but I'm not so sure when it comes to anvils that are that massive. I've never used one that large. 

Pnut

[Rojo Pedro]

If they were mine, I would forge three of the same thing and see if I could note then report the differences. 

I would like to hear what you you think

[ThomasPowers]

Not that long ago HC steel was much more expensive than wrought iron and so a relatively thin steel face over a wrought iron body saved a LOT of money.  (One source I read said that in Americas around the American Civil War, HC steel could cost 6 times as much as wrought iron.)  Also earlier steel casting had issues with very large grain sizes in "as cast" items. Extensive forging was used to refine the grain. So what you gained in casting to shape was lost in lesser strength.  So an early cast steel anvil may be weaker than a composite anvil.

Now Europe gained a lot of skills in cast HC steels; often due to the Armaments Industry and soon were able to make high grade cast steel anvils.

Another thing is that earlier anvils were used for the forging of real wrought iron that is worked at welding heat and is dead soft at that temperature and so can even be worked with rocks as anvils!   Not like forging H-13 or D2 on an old anvil today.

You will note that cast steel anvils still have a reputation for edge damage due to hardness.  I have seen some reference to tempering the edges a bit more to make them softer but less likely to chip.   A new smith with a heavy hammer and little hammer control can do a lot of damage to a cast steel anvil!

Reading old anvil ads can give you an idea of what both sides thought  were the plusses and minuses of composite vs cast anvils back in the day.

[Jonnytait]

I like big cast steel anvils, and old wrought iron anvils, who doesnt? In reality though, its going to make little to no difference. you can only get so much done in a given time frame with a hand hammer, whether you are using a large cast steel hardened anvil or a large chunk of mild steel, I dont think it really matters that much. Having an anvil fastened down properly is much more important in my opinion. 

[BartW]

Well; I drew a taper on 3 identical pieces of E-clip (railroad pandrol E-clip fastener). This is 20 mm round 9260 steel; IE; it doesn't move easy under the hammer. I don't really need more punches or chisels, but hey, a couple more never hurts

I started with the 1908 wrought Iron + steel face anvil; on a steel tripod foot. I didn't hold back; I used the same 3 pound hammer. What amazed me was the sound. It moved the metal pretty much as I expect it to, I can't really say if it moves more or less compared to the 300-ish pound Skoda. But it sounds better, less high-pitch "ping", more softer, muffled. The anvil face didn't have any issues, not even after I pounded the edges cherry red. The anvil feels more solid; like the center of mass is lower, it doesn't want to move much front-back. So I'd say 95% 

Next, new piece of steel; skoda anvil. Since I have twins of these; I used both. In this case; I prefer the fixed stump over the steel tripod. Sounds was less fun though. The steel tripod skoda moves more front-to back when drawing on the edges; while the one mounted on the stump (glued to the stump; stump glued to the concrete) didn't.  It moves metal about the same tough; and even tough these anvils are literally glass-hard, they don't really chip much after rounding the edges. The sound is more annoying on the steel tripod skoda though. I guess 94 % for the sound, same metal displacement. The steel tripod one get's a 93%  for the more annoying sound.

Then, off to the UAT. I couldn't use the edges (these are still new - not rounded yet); but it was less effecient. Same annoying sound as the steel tripod skoda. But the metal moved less; if I had to guess; i'd say 90 %.

For fun 'n games; I tried a vulcan anvil and a swage block; the vulcan I would range around 75% (sound was much better than on the cast steel ones again);  the swage block (mild steel) around 60%.

I really like the 1908 anvil; much more than I'd expect to like it. I think the additional mass makes a difference; and the less uniform structure a more pleasant sound. Anyone else some idea's to test these anvils against eachother ? 

[Rojo Pedro]

Nice. Thanks for sharing.

And pandrol clips no less!

 

[FlatLiner]

Interesting test Bart. I have been wondering the same thing, new vs old, cast steel vs wrought iron with a forge welded face. But I only have a couple century old cast steel anvils. They are quite small compared to yours :-) 125 lbs, and 130 lbs.

[BartW]

If you ever come in this corner of the world (well after this whole situation of lockdowns and virusses is fixed); swing by and try them yourself I'd say

I'll provide the beer (for after forging, and we got some good ones here). 

I didn't snap pictures of the stands; but they are really comparable, as is the mountings method. This is more of a luxury problem than anything else, I'm fully aware of that. I could get by on pretty much any real anvil. Working on the 110 pound vulcan would be "mildly frustrating" for the long haul.  It's still amazing how a high-end modern hardened & tempered cast tool steel anvil stacks up against a way older anvil of about double it's weight. 

I think I'll part the UAT and one skoda in the corner somewhere after painting them; and break them out when doing classes. 

[BartW]

2 hours ago, BartW said:

I think I'll part the UAT and one skoda in the corner somewhere after painting them; and break them out when doing classes. 

I think I'll park  ... typo. Can't edit for some reason.

[JHCC]

You've got about half an hour from when you first hit "Save" to edit a comment. After that, you can ask a moderator to edit it for you by clicking the three dots in the upper right corner of the comment, clicking "Report". and then typing the edit request in the text box that pops up before you hit "Submit Report". Keep in mind, though, that the moderators are all volunteers, so please only do this for typos that significantly alter the meaning of the comment (especially regarding safety issues) and that aren't reasonably intelligible anyway. 

[ThomasPowers]

Besides which; a good typo is great fun and we all make them from time to time.

[pnut]

Predictive text is the bane of my existence. Especially when it only shows the first two letters and last two letters. I ended up with immoderately instead of immediately a couple days ago.  I should turn it off. 

Pnut

[BartW]

't is done. The UAT has been replaced by the 1908 anvil. Well; the UAT has been parked in the corner next to the Vulcan with a fresh coat of paint.

About the 1908 anvil; I still can't get myself to cut & grind the broken off edge straight. There's something "wrong" in cutting an anvil more then 100 years old.