anvil Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 Frosty, you puzzled me too. Apparently you don't approve of beveling an anvil the way I suggested. Trust this isn't an original idea by me. Good example Thomas, and here's another. This is for you new guys. I'm a believer that a good skill to develop is to be able to forge to dimension and match your scrolls. To do this you must start with the same amount of material at each transition. Let's take a simple "s" hook with two rat tail finials. I have two tapers for the rat tail. I need material for the two scroll ends that aren't tapered and I need the same amount of material for the straight in-between the two scrolls. The transitions are where the straight starts to scroll. The next transition is where each taper starts so as to make the taper for the finial. Now lets just look at the parent stock needed for the taper because this is where it ties into this discussion. Let's say I choose to start with 1" of parent stock and I want to draw it out to 1-1/2". So, I'm getting ready for a crafts fair and I want an inventory of 10 of these "S" hooks. That means, to get them to match, I have to match 20 tapers even before I begin to scroll these "S" hooks and finials. When this is finished, I will have 10 lengths of say 1/4" square all with matching taper lengths, material for the " S", and matching straight sections. Now all I need to do is learn to turn these scrolls so when I'm done, they are all the same length say 6" top to bottom and the scrolls and finials match. When I am making my 20 tapers, let's say two ended up 1/4" long. If I don't fix these, I will have a harder getting them all to match. Well, at last, this is a perfect place to use the sharp edge on the heel to trim off that little extra bit of stock cold or hot. Of course I can use other tools, but hey, might as well use the edge of the anvil. Thus, I recommend that the edges of an anvil be beveled as I stated above. Note: if I do trim these off, the scrolls will not quite match because the two I trimmed will have less total volume than the other 8. However, I've found that equal lengths of taper and slightly thinner tapers are easier on the eyes than longer lengths and equal volumes. How much of a difference does this make? Well, it depends on how close together they are. 2' apart and you won't notice. 2" apart and it just might stick out like a sore thumb. I chose "S" hooks because this item was always a good crafts fair item and it was my intro to forging to dimension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kexel Werkstatt Posted February 14, 2021 Author Share Posted February 14, 2021 I dont scare easily Frosty, no worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelonian Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 Looks very nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 What does how you bevel an anvil have to do the discussion? Not being a professional blacksmith I use a different approach to making matched S hooks. As Thomas says cutting stock at an angle indeed makes drawing a point faster and easier. I cut my 10 equal lengths. Twist the center section allowing it to run into the taper areas say 1/4" to better blend the transition from twist to taper. I mark the desired taper length on the anvil face from the far edge. I start my taper pointing the end and drawing it back, when it reaches the mark it's to length, I stop. I make the finial scrolls, deviations are negligible over all, I turn the hooks and I have 10 matched S hooks without trimming. The more units you make the easier it is to match them. You can compare at any point in the steps and they match. Except after the finial scrolls are turned but the difference is only noticeable if you lay them all next to each other. True I don't think I've ever made 10 matched S hooks at once. I usually made 5 at a time and I used to make matched leaf finial coat hooks in sets of 4 or more on request. I didn't make matched sets to sell, though spectators were welcome to buy of course. I made matched sets to demonstrate how consistent work is done. Anyone can make one offs, matching is where it's at. I do it through sequenced steps that minimize deviation. Our situations are different in another way I hadn't considered when I responded earlier. I have a Soderfors anvil, any missed blow will mark the hammer except on the horn, the face will skate a file. Even tapping it between blows marks the hammer. Cutting stock on the edge of MY anvil will eat your hammer. I don't tap it either. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 On 2/13/2021 at 7:49 PM, Frosty said: bevel an anvil Sorry, been dealing with snow. As to your first question, I feel that if you are going to dress the edges of your anvil, this is good info. I'm not sure what being a full time smith has to do with anything. As to how you match tapers, your way works. However to match tapers, there are two factors that must be dealt with. Length, and you do just fine with this. The second is mass. You don't mention this at all. Different mass equal different tapers. As an extreme example, take two pieces of half square and we want a 1-1/2" length. So do one with an half inch of stock and draw it out as you stated. Now take a 1-1/4" length and draw it to your length. Now compare them. They both are 1-1/2" in length, but one is a fatboy taper and the other is a thin and wispy taper. Pretty basic. If you start a taper at the end of the bar, as soon as you make your first blow, you have lost control of keeping your mass as you need,and you have no real control of equal mass. If you don't mark where the taper starts, you have no real way of insuring your masses will match. The ole mark one eyeball does a pretty fair job, consciously or not, and especially like you said, the more you do the closer you can be. However, nothing beats some sort of reference that will let you know where the taper starts(the transition). There are many ways to do this that will insure that you hit this reference point right on the money. A scribe mark, a light center punch on an edge, or even a chalkmark inboard of this point on your iron and a matching reference on the edge of your anvil much like laying out the length of the taper. This info is not for those who aren't concerned with precise forging, it's for those who want some basics to add a bit more control over your final product with literally no additional time needed. Can't beat that. And it works in many situations. As far as dinging your hammer, I answered that above as well. Just simply don't cut all the way thru your piece. Then use a shearing blow to knock it off. This lil tip is not anvil brand dependent, it works in all situations. If you accidentally cut thru, then you get two great lessons, just why your anvil face is harder than your hammer and a lesson in dressing your hammer. Lol, mistakes often are great teachers. My lesson learned from my mistakes was better hammer control and leaving a sharp edge for many reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Oh xxxx don't go into your pretentious pompous lecture mode! The only logical reason you are so defensive about using the edge of your anvil as a hardy is you've been called on it more than once. Your shop your way, I don't have any problem with that. Unfortunately you aren't going to convince folks you actually have a good reason for using your anvil instead of a proper bottom cut. Ask Brian Brazeal where to start a taper and how to control it. He doesn't trim to adjust tapers or match: hooks, scrolls, etc. and since trying his method neither do I. What a pompous attempt at some special knowledge to claim Mass in a 1/4" to point taper of any length needs to be calculated. That is just absurd unless you need to calculate: propellant, velocity and ballistics. Visual mass in that small a taper is an aesthetic negative. I know I said this once already but I couldn't take it. I AM done and I apologize to the forum for engaging Anvil in this . . . stuff. I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kexel Werkstatt Posted February 17, 2021 Author Share Posted February 17, 2021 So hey here's the edge of my anvil now (poor attempt at quick distraction). How does it look guys? I could do more but I figure a more time drawing tapers and less time flap discing will get it truly tuned. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Your anvil edge looks fine, Kexel, if you need more radius you know what to do. Lots of guys vary it from narrow to wide, no need to stick yourself with just one. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartW Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 On 2/12/2021 at 11:43 PM, Kexel Werkstatt said: Well it's grinding weekend for me. I actually love grinding (and rasping and sanding), at least the process of it, but I hate the mess, wearing the respirator for hours, having to blow out or vacuum all the particles and dust, etc. You know; I hate grinding and I got a whole LOT to do ... Wanna come over ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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