Coil spring question

[Andrew C]

I apologize if this is the wrong place. 

I have 2 new in the box coil springs from Moog.  They are painted black and not powder coated which makes life easier.  The spring is 5/8" in diameter.

So, my question...how large does the diameter need to be to draw out a 1.5" wide blade?  Will 5/8" be enough?

Using math...

The area of a rectangle of .125" x 1.5" is 0.19 (l x w)

The area of a circle of .625 / 2 (.3125) is 0.31 (Pi x radius squared)

So, if I can flatten it without drawing out the length and just draw out the width, the math suggests it is possible.

It seems like an impossible task to only draw out the width using a forge and anvil.  I am a beginner and have only heated metal and pounded out a couple of points 1 time.  So my blacksmithing knowledge is next to nil.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Andrew

[Glenn]

The quick way to calculate this is to use modeling clay. 

Roll into a proper size cylinder and then flatten into a blade. 

Second option is to make a blade from clay and then reform the blade into a proper size cylinder, or original stock size.

Add a little for loss during forging.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Do you have a properly rounded cross peen hammer?  If the metal is there then the answer lies with your skills and equipment.  I will say that for a beginner it will be pretty hard. Especially as there is some length change even when drawing it out wider.

[Frazer]

If you find that you don't have enough material, you can probably upset the bar or cut some length of the bar ~3/4" of the way though and bend it back on itself. Then forge weld it into itself to get some extra material to work with. Neither is ideal, but I suppose either could work.

Try it as Glenn/TP suggest first.

[ThomasPowers]

Coil spring, if it is 5160, can be a bit tricky to forge weld to itself due to the Cr content; especially for new smiths.

[Andrew C]

Thanks guys!  I cut off 2 10" lengths and plan to take them to the local open forge night to start working on them.  

Can you explain "properly rounded cross peen hammer"?  Or if there is a place for how to dress your hammers?  I have a gifted cross peen hammer with a loose handle and is roughly 4lbs.  One side of the flat face looks crushed like they used it to hammer on something cold and hard for way too long.

[Frosty]

If you have an anvil with a horn and a cross pein hammer you can draw the width on the horn to minimize lengthening the piece. Lay the stock lengthwise on the horn and strike it with the pein parallel with the horn and stock. You'll want to strike a couple blows with the face first to make a "flat" surface to work with the cross pein, it's MUCH easier.

You have two new coil springs, do NOT worry about getting THE blade you want the first couple times you try. That's a pretty thin blade but with experience not particularly difficult. It could drive you nuts for a first though. 

First off, cut the springs into pieces, say 1/2 the coil dia. it'll be MUCH easier to straighten than the whole coil. Once straight heat one end and take a slash at forging a blade. I suggest you go for maybe 1" - 1 1/4" blade width, it'll leave you some margin for error. To get the width and thickness you're asking about you'll need to forge it pretty darned quickly or scale will diminish the stock blow what you need.

Perhaps my best advice is, don't let failures frustrate you, they're a fact of life blacksmithing. So to the advice, blacksmithing is fun, big time fun. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Andrew C]

Thanks for all the advice.  I found several videos on dressing hammers and looking mine....so many nicks and out of shape.  I will take that on as my project for tonight.  I'll post some pictures before and after.

As for the round stock, I know it won't be an easy project and I plan to add more to my scrap bucket before I product any decent results.  But the metal was free and I have lots of it.  My initial plan is to take it to the forge and get it straight, hammer it roughly 1/4" x whatever I have left, and then see where I can take it from there.  I'll also take a length and try to get it square to make some tools.  I have a few cheap punches and 1 chisel, but making your own tools is a project I can learn with.

Forging blades will be down the road.  But I'm not in a huge hurry to get there with forging.  Watching videos and reading will only get one so far.  Experience is a better teacher.

Thanks again,

Andrew

[ThomasPowers]

My favorite straight peen hammer, the peen looks like a 1" piece of round stock was welded on it.  Most modern ones I see sold at big box stores the peens are sharp enough to use for cutting stock!

[anvil]

Differences, differences. For me, a proper shaped cross peen is flat not round. Somewhere between 5/8" and 3/4" flat with a very slightly rounded face and  beveled edges. The reason this draws faster is because everything under the flat is forged to the same thickness with each blow. A half round can only bring the centerline of the draw to thickness. You must still forge it with a flat hammer even to get it to where your hsmmer can clean it up to bring it to flat. Instead of a long off topic discussion, i suggest you try both and learn the strengths and application of each. A half round fuller is great for separating mass and doing a groove.

Back to your math. Im a math freak when figuring out my starting material. This is a quick and dirty way to look at it. Using a cross peen, if you forge it to half its thickness it will become twice as wide, and grow very little in length. Thus your 5/8" round approximately becomes 5/16" thick and 10/8"(1-1/4") wide. A knife is around 1/4" to 3/16" thick, so you are close. Obviously squares and rounds are different, but this gives you a quick idea. 

If you want to know exact, you need to understand how to do equal mass comparison. 

Upsetting this would be no fun and eat you up timewise. Even upsetting for a 6" knife is a daunting task.

[Andrew C]

Well, my freebie hammer is a bust.  

1.  The handle was loose, so I took it out side and hit a piece of concrete and it broke.  The last 4 inches were wrapped in electrical tape so I couldn't see it.  Inside the eye was dry rotted as well.

2.  I put the head on the belt grinder to start with the flat face to true it up and found 2 cracks about 1/4" into the main body at opposing edges.

I threw the handle in the trash.  Then I wanted to put the hammer head in with it but decided I could clean it up and remove some metal to make it usable when I have a few hours to work on it.  I'll need a new handle, but I can manage that with a store bought one or make one out of some red oak.

Now I figure I'll hold off on buying a new or used one until I go to the open forge night and try out a few that he has laying around to get a feel for weight, shape, type, etc.

I really wanted to head out to Lowes, HD, or HF and just buy one, but I have a couple choices from 2.2lbs, 2.5lbs, or 3lbs.  I read the descriptions regarding forged, drop forged, and high carbon steel as well as the handle materials.  Some just say hardwood while others indicate hickory.  Ah, decisions, decisions...

[Frosty]

Don't throw the old one away, there are things you can make from it, like top tools. 

Garage, yard, etc. sales are excellent places to find: hammers, chisels, punches, allan wrenches, etc. for pennies on the kugerrand. Cheap'O punches, chisels and allan wrenches are excellent sources for struck tools.

Don't go for a heavy hammer to start with, 2 lbs. is plenty to move metal effectively and won't tire or do damage to YOU quickly. Once you've developed hammer control and the right muscles a heavier hammer is worth checking out. I start folk with a 32oz. drill hammer, they have shorter handles and smooth faces like a small single jack sledge. The shorter handle gives you better control and 32oz. won't injure you as quickly.

I have two on my ready rack, one is a 3lb. version. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Andrew C]

I hung on to the old head.  I think I can get a decent hammer head out of it once I address the flaws.

While many years ago, I have spent days with a framing hammer in hand.  I know how tired swinging 20oz hammers can be.  I don't know what style I will end up with, but the local open forge has several to test out.

In all, you guys have given great advice.  Thank you.

 

[Irondragon ForgeClay Works]

On 1/11/2021 at 1:02 PM, Andrew C said:

Or if there is a place for how to dress your hammers

Yes go to Blacksmith Tooling/ Hand Hammers, there are two sticky's Store Bought Hammer Mods and Hammer Dressing and Cow Pies.

[jlpservicesinc]

Here you go.. Good primer for peen use. 

I prefer a narrower rounder peen but this is explained in another video I think.. 
 

 

[Andrew C]

Thanks JLP!  I have 2 10" straight rods now.  I'll practice on drawing them out as wide as I can and maintain 3/16-1/8".  I have a new hammer on order and should be coming in soon.

 

Andrew