Andrew C Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 I apologize if this is the wrong place. I have 2 new in the box coil springs from Moog. They are painted black and not powder coated which makes life easier. The spring is 5/8" in diameter. So, my question...how large does the diameter need to be to draw out a 1.5" wide blade? Will 5/8" be enough? Using math... The area of a rectangle of .125" x 1.5" is 0.19 (l x w) The area of a circle of .625 / 2 (.3125) is 0.31 (Pi x radius squared) So, if I can flatten it without drawing out the length and just draw out the width, the math suggests it is possible. It seems like an impossible task to only draw out the width using a forge and anvil. I am a beginner and have only heated metal and pounded out a couple of points 1 time. So my blacksmithing knowledge is next to nil. Thanks in advance for the help. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 The quick way to calculate this is to use modeling clay. Roll into a proper size cylinder and then flatten into a blade. Second option is to make a blade from clay and then reform the blade into a proper size cylinder, or original stock size. Add a little for loss during forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 Do you have a properly rounded cross peen hammer? If the metal is there then the answer lies with your skills and equipment. I will say that for a beginner it will be pretty hard. Especially as there is some length change even when drawing it out wider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 If you find that you don't have enough material, you can probably upset the bar or cut some length of the bar ~3/4" of the way though and bend it back on itself. Then forge weld it into itself to get some extra material to work with. Neither is ideal, but I suppose either could work. Try it as Glenn/TP suggest first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 Coil spring, if it is 5160, can be a bit tricky to forge weld to itself due to the Cr content; especially for new smiths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted January 11, 2021 Author Share Posted January 11, 2021 Thanks guys! I cut off 2 10" lengths and plan to take them to the local open forge night to start working on them. Can you explain "properly rounded cross peen hammer"? Or if there is a place for how to dress your hammers? I have a gifted cross peen hammer with a loose handle and is roughly 4lbs. One side of the flat face looks crushed like they used it to hammer on something cold and hard for way too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 If you have an anvil with a horn and a cross pein hammer you can draw the width on the horn to minimize lengthening the piece. Lay the stock lengthwise on the horn and strike it with the pein parallel with the horn and stock. You'll want to strike a couple blows with the face first to make a "flat" surface to work with the cross pein, it's MUCH easier. You have two new coil springs, do NOT worry about getting THE blade you want the first couple times you try. That's a pretty thin blade but with experience not particularly difficult. It could drive you nuts for a first though. First off, cut the springs into pieces, say 1/2 the coil dia. it'll be MUCH easier to straighten than the whole coil. Once straight heat one end and take a slash at forging a blade. I suggest you go for maybe 1" - 1 1/4" blade width, it'll leave you some margin for error. To get the width and thickness you're asking about you'll need to forge it pretty darned quickly or scale will diminish the stock blow what you need. Perhaps my best advice is, don't let failures frustrate you, they're a fact of life blacksmithing. So to the advice, blacksmithing is fun, big time fun. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted January 11, 2021 Author Share Posted January 11, 2021 Thanks for all the advice. I found several videos on dressing hammers and looking mine....so many nicks and out of shape. I will take that on as my project for tonight. I'll post some pictures before and after. As for the round stock, I know it won't be an easy project and I plan to add more to my scrap bucket before I product any decent results. But the metal was free and I have lots of it. My initial plan is to take it to the forge and get it straight, hammer it roughly 1/4" x whatever I have left, and then see where I can take it from there. I'll also take a length and try to get it square to make some tools. I have a few cheap punches and 1 chisel, but making your own tools is a project I can learn with. Forging blades will be down the road. But I'm not in a huge hurry to get there with forging. Watching videos and reading will only get one so far. Experience is a better teacher. Thanks again, Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 My favorite straight peen hammer, the peen looks like a 1" piece of round stock was welded on it. Most modern ones I see sold at big box stores the peens are sharp enough to use for cutting stock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Differences, differences. For me, a proper shaped cross peen is flat not round. Somewhere between 5/8" and 3/4" flat with a very slightly rounded face and beveled edges. The reason this draws faster is because everything under the flat is forged to the same thickness with each blow. A half round can only bring the centerline of the draw to thickness. You must still forge it with a flat hammer even to get it to where your hsmmer can clean it up to bring it to flat. Instead of a long off topic discussion, i suggest you try both and learn the strengths and application of each. A half round fuller is great for separating mass and doing a groove. Back to your math. Im a math freak when figuring out my starting material. This is a quick and dirty way to look at it. Using a cross peen, if you forge it to half its thickness it will become twice as wide, and grow very little in length. Thus your 5/8" round approximately becomes 5/16" thick and 10/8"(1-1/4") wide. A knife is around 1/4" to 3/16" thick, so you are close. Obviously squares and rounds are different, but this gives you a quick idea. If you want to know exact, you need to understand how to do equal mass comparison. Upsetting this would be no fun and eat you up timewise. Even upsetting for a 6" knife is a daunting task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 Well, my freebie hammer is a bust. 1. The handle was loose, so I took it out side and hit a piece of concrete and it broke. The last 4 inches were wrapped in electrical tape so I couldn't see it. Inside the eye was dry rotted as well. 2. I put the head on the belt grinder to start with the flat face to true it up and found 2 cracks about 1/4" into the main body at opposing edges. I threw the handle in the trash. Then I wanted to put the hammer head in with it but decided I could clean it up and remove some metal to make it usable when I have a few hours to work on it. I'll need a new handle, but I can manage that with a store bought one or make one out of some red oak. Now I figure I'll hold off on buying a new or used one until I go to the open forge night and try out a few that he has laying around to get a feel for weight, shape, type, etc. I really wanted to head out to Lowes, HD, or HF and just buy one, but I have a couple choices from 2.2lbs, 2.5lbs, or 3lbs. I read the descriptions regarding forged, drop forged, and high carbon steel as well as the handle materials. Some just say hardwood while others indicate hickory. Ah, decisions, decisions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Don't throw the old one away, there are things you can make from it, like top tools. Garage, yard, etc. sales are excellent places to find: hammers, chisels, punches, allan wrenches, etc. for pennies on the kugerrand. Cheap'O punches, chisels and allan wrenches are excellent sources for struck tools. Don't go for a heavy hammer to start with, 2 lbs. is plenty to move metal effectively and won't tire or do damage to YOU quickly. Once you've developed hammer control and the right muscles a heavier hammer is worth checking out. I start folk with a 32oz. drill hammer, they have shorter handles and smooth faces like a small single jack sledge. The shorter handle gives you better control and 32oz. won't injure you as quickly. I have two on my ready rack, one is a 3lb. version. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 I hung on to the old head. I think I can get a decent hammer head out of it once I address the flaws. While many years ago, I have spent days with a framing hammer in hand. I know how tired swinging 20oz hammers can be. I don't know what style I will end up with, but the local open forge has several to test out. In all, you guys have given great advice. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 On 1/11/2021 at 1:02 PM, Andrew C said: Or if there is a place for how to dress your hammers Yes go to Blacksmith Tooling/ Hand Hammers, there are two sticky's Store Bought Hammer Mods and Hammer Dressing and Cow Pies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 Here you go.. Good primer for peen use. I prefer a narrower rounder peen but this is explained in another video I think.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 Thanks JLP! I have 2 10" straight rods now. I'll practice on drawing them out as wide as I can and maintain 3/16-1/8". I have a new hammer on order and should be coming in soon. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Andrew C, When I started, I spent a lot of time and fuel trying to take unsuitable parent stock to my needed dimensions. Those brute force exercises were typically conducted during these narrow windows of opportunities for me to get out and do some blacksmithing. By the time the metal was close to dimension, I was tired, frustrated, and prone to making mistakes. I burned a lot of stuff in half because I was trying to finish the project just before I ran out of daylight. I also gave myself tennis elbow which even after very expensive corrective surgery and a year + of physical therapy is still far from 100%. New stock is cheap. Springs, especially coil springs, take a lot of work to convert into flat stock. 2" x 3/16" x 12" flat stock in something good like 1095 is going to cost you less than $25.00 If I had it all to do again, I wouldn't have let the youtube blokes with 6lb rounding hammers convince me that every project can start with the Eiffel tower, and be forged to finish in two heats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Hmmm the headstock for a fairly near mine was designed by Eifel's engineering company....wonder if the current owner would sell any of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted February 17, 2021 Author Share Posted February 17, 2021 I started working one piece and after 5 heats, it was still about 1/4" thick and only 3/4" wide using about 4" of the length. My ASO is a 55lb free HF special. I have it mounted to a wrought iron stand that easily weighs more than the anvil. The rebound is crap even mounted to the stout 1/2" thick wrought iron stand, maybe 2 or 3" out of 10". I made sure to get the metal to non-magnetic before forging. Even then, the going was rough with my 2.5# hammer. I quit soon after because my shoulder was on fire. Arthritis makes me listen to my body or I have a steep price to pay for days after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 The curie point (transition to non-magnetic) is in the red temperature range, well below what I would consider forging temperature. The latter would be in the orange to yellow temperature range. Once the steel gets down to a red/black heat its generally time to go back into the fire. The curie temp is an indicator of when its time to quench steel for hardening, not when it's ready for forging. Get that steel hot, especially tougher alloys like spring steel, and stop once it gets cold. Your shoulder will thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 On 2/16/2021 at 9:57 PM, Andrew C said: I started working one piece and after 5 heats, it was still about 1/4" thick and only 3/4" wide using about 4" of the length. Arthritis makes me listen to my body or I have a steep price to pay for days after. Andrew, I'd suggest listening to your body before you go to aggressive in your hammering. What I mean by this is, start with a lighter hammer and choose projects that are easier until you have ample time both getting in shape and getting used to swinging a hammer a million times.. Look at it more as an endurance race based on sprints.. when breaking down stock like what your after it's best to work it half on, half off and get this technique down well.. Since your anvil is smaller doing it over the horn is a good method too as long as the anvil is solidly mounted. Also, just over/under magnetic is not a great way to establish proper forging temperatures.. Ideally forging temperatures are well above transformation temperature and would suggest downloading "Heat treaters" app for your phone or looking online at metal suppliers websites for proper forging temperatures.. I just pulled this off the web. I read 3 different articles and it was funny because some of the information was wrong. It's a medium carbon steel. Was interesting since I just read 5 different websites and they list it 5 different ways.. Traditionally 0.60 carbon was medium carbon.. Over this was high carbon.. I can understand why it would be looked at as a high carbon steel because of it's properties change and 5160 used mainly today, even in 1060.. 5160 gets to HRc 60 so it thru hardening vs shallow hardening of the 10series. Hammers unless tempered way back will dent an anvils face, while a 1045 hammer would be hard pressed.. ) sorry got side tracked.. Pay attention to the forging temperatures.. Forging below these temperatures can lead to stress cracks.. Forging Forging should be between 1600° to 2200°F (871° to 1204°C) Annealing Annealing should be at 1525°F (829°C) followed by a rapid cool to 1380°F (748°C) and then a slow cool. Normalizing Normalizing should be at 1600°F (871°C) for a long period of time followed by air cooling. Hardening Hardening should be at 1525°F (829°C) followed by a quench in oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 2 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: Andrew, I'd suggest listening to your body before you go to aggressive in your hammering. I could not agree with this more. I haven't been able to do any forging for a couple of months, partly because it's been so cold, but mostly because over-aggressive hammering gave me some wicked tennis elbow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Andrew: Take the 3 previous poster's advice to heart or you'll tear your joints up for nothing. Bright orange heat minimum, 2lb. max hammer until you've built the muscle and hammer technique and learn the fatigue cues that tell you you're tiring. The cue I watch for in students is when their accuracy starts to get worse. It takes strength to be accurate and it's the first to go as they tire. Be safe and enjoy the craft longest. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Is you HF ASO anvil denting under the 5160 when you hammer on it? If it is a lot of the energy you are putting in with the hammer is going to deform the ASO. Hunt down a steel improvised anvil! Even an annealed hammer may dent a grey cast iron ASO! (I would also NOT suggest hammering out 5160 on a grey cast iron horn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted February 17, 2021 Author Share Posted February 17, 2021 Thanks for all the replies! I'm on the lookout for a better anvil, but I don't have the cash right now due to building a new house. When I get settled in 6 to 9 months, I'll begin in earnest provided a great deal didn't fall on me out of the sky. lol As for the heat, I was well above non-magnetic. I gauged the color as best I could and my son verified that it was very bright yellow orange. My new forge is Hot! And don't worry too much about my body, I have been diagnosed with Psoriatic Arthritis for over 10 years and know my limits well. In addition, I'm working out a few days a week and coaching a tackle football team 2 days a week. I'll post some pics this weekend if I get a change to pull everything out and get it fired up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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