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I Forge Iron

How Tough are Anvils?


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I've wondered about this for quite some time. Do you ever worry about damaging your anvil when working? I often find myself lightening my hammer blows out of caution whenever I move towards the end of the heel or horn on my 175lb anvil even if I'm using a 2lb hammer. Is this a legitimate concern? I know this question is really easy to answer with "It depends", so I'll try to make this as detailed as possible:

Assuming you are working mild steel at a reasonable forging temperature and barring mis-strikes, is there any significant risk of a single person (i.e. not including strikers) breaking off a horn or heel of a time-tested (relatively old) anvil? Let's assume the anvil is an average sized shop anvil, maybe in the 150-175lb range. I know it also depends on what pattern/time period the anvil is from, so let's assume an average English, European, or American anvil produced anytime in the 19th and 20th centuries. By "average", I simply mean not an anvil purely built for heavy industrial forging, nor an anvil built solely for light ornamental work, but the more common anvils between the two extremes. Hopefully I've covered most of the variables.

Or, have you ever broken/damaged an anvil or heard of one being broken? If so, what were the conditions?

I've seen many anvils missing horns and heels, but I wonder if most of these were manufacturing defects and failed shortly after being put into use, rather than after 50 years of use. I've never seen an anvil that looked like it was recently broken.

Curious to hear your opinions or experiences,

Thanks!

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I don't think you have anything to worry about using a hand hammer, given your description. That is provided the anvil has no weak spots (casting flaw or cracks).

The only old anvil I have seen get the heel broken off was someone using the hardy hole to drive a hardy with a large stem into the hole to size it. If I remember he was using an 8 pound hammer and the heat had just about gone out of the stock. I blamed that on operator error, he should have forged the stem down closer to the right size.

I have done some pretty heavy hammering on our MP cast steel Farrier's anvil's heel along with the 110 pound Vulcan, using my go to 2 1/2 pound cross peen hammer and they are still good to go.

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Mis strikes are not good, especially with a sledgehammer. You'll want to hammer as hard or as soft as the work needs. Obviously if you are over the sweet spot of a proper sized anvil for the work you han hammer hard. And if you are on the edge tapering a small point you adjust accordingly. 

The construction of the anvil has some to do with it in ways. You certainly dont want to wail on a wedge fit hardy tool in an anvil with just a thinner face plate top. 

Original flaws are part of anvil breakage too.

I would say the number 1 damage I've heard of in recent times is people grinding or milling the hardened face off of an anvil because they didn't know better and thought it needed to be perfectly flat and have sharp edges. 

Welding on them without the proper methods isn't helpful either. 

If you are hitting hot iron and using good practice I dont think you need to stress about it. Some old anvils could still have unseen flaws but an anvil is a tool like any other and if used properly and a good tool, it should last. They are still a consumable, just a Very slow one.

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Anything is possible but I look at it like any other tool. So long as I don't misuse it it'll hold up to normal use. I worry about it being cold out and breaking the horn off of my little anvil but I still use it the same although the thought is in the back of my mind sometimes. Unless there's a crack you don't know about you shouldn't have anything to worry about using a hammer on your 170plus pound anvil. I would worry more about using the hardy hole to set shoulders in bottom tools I would be making versus breaking the anvil working stock on the face. 

This is also one of the reasons I would prefer buying new. Warranties against defects. 

Pnut

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Of course most warranties don't cover "abuse" and the manufacturer choses what constitutes "abuse"...

I have an anvil missing it's heel, 1828 William Foster, very clean break that I assume was a forge welding flaw combined with a multi piece face with a joint that lined up with the edge of the hardy hole that lined up with the heel weld.  I also have a Vulcan anvil missing it's horn, it was a friends anvil and a student broke off the horn peening a rivet.  There were MASSIVE casting voids at the horn/body area that explains how rather light work resulted in catastrophic failure.

Another friend broke the heel off his Grandfather's anvil working with it on an excessively cold morning with no preheat in the Panhandle of Texas.

I don't use sledges on the horn or heel.  If I need to fuller heavy stock I use a bottom fuller with the work done over the sweet spot---just recently made one from a car axle as a student wanted to rework a hammer head.  165# Hay Budden:

bottomfuller1.jpg.bd5acd651bd073046f7345bd922f198c.jpg

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cold seems to be the largest concern and from what I have read on metallurgy it all makes good sense. 

when I went to the die shop that started in 1834 they had a bunch of broken anvils.  Interestingly they were mainly 2nd gen Hay Buddens.. all cracked at the hardie hole.. 

They did a lot of work both cold and hot and it was a lot of the same hits so some of the wrought iron anvils had no horn because it was abrasive worn off.  Which means hundreds of thousands of hits in one spot over and over.   Few realize abrasive wear is a problem with anvils. 

A well known smith told me last summer that his original to him new Peddinghaus has wear in the face that he has used time and time again..  I believe him.. 

So, as for the damaged anvils at the die shop, the anvils that seemed to fair the best were the ones with very thick heels and horns.  One thing that was a problem was the Hay budden anvils did have their hardie holes opened up to accept 1 1/4" tooling no matter the size of the anvil.  I think this is what started the cracks..  There were no fillets and the cuts were from chisels. 

So, this time of year I always preheat the anvil..  

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Very interesting. Thank you all!

Irondragon: Do you remember any details about the anvil itself, like the construction type and maybe rough weight? Was the anvil cold when it broke?

JLP: I wonder at what temperature this becomes a serious issue. What do you do to preheat your anvil?

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13 hours ago, Chelonian said:

JLP: I wonder at what temperature this becomes a serious issue. What do you do to preheat your anvil?

Well, metallurgically  there is a point where each ferrous item has a cold short property.  Again depending on alloy, inclusions, and chemistry. 

I once dropped a cutting edge for a plow in the cold of winter on the ground and it snapped into 3 different pieces.  During the summer it would not have been a problem. 

With anvils I don't chance it so once the temperature gets down around freezing I will heat up a bar of size several times and lay it on the face of the anvil or waist to absorb some of the heat..  If I am am working on a project that is main face work I will start out slowly and stay away from horn or tail until the anvil is warm to the touch. 

Axes were known to snap at the blade when cold out so many would not be warranteed if this kind of failure happened..  There is a disclaimer which can be found that warns to heat the axe some before use. 

Also interesting is the fact that and axe when used will get pretty warm or hot when swung cutting down trees. 

A light box can be used to heat the anvil as well..  Just leave it plugged in overnight with the bulb on. 

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I am often so envious of people who live in warmer climates or have a shop that is heated..  

If you look at more of the videos on the YT channel there is ice sticking up out of the water tub..  The temps in the trailer are usually below freezing so even with anvil preheat I'm lucky to get in 10swings of the hammer before it's to cold to forge well. 

Others get on the tube and they are going at it for 10minutes and it's still hot and they are moving any metal..  I"m like dang..  LOL.. :) 

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Even a single incandescent light bulb can make a difference in a space like that. If you really want to warm it up run a chicken heat lamp. Costs a bit in electric but well worth the comfort and a warmer anvil when starting out.

I am lucky to have an NG furnace in my shop but same issue with cost of running it. It only gets turned on if I know I'll be up there a while and it's uncomfortably cold.

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the school will have infra red so the objects will be warm to the touch.  

A light bulb inside a pink foam lid would keep it toasty..  

If I was working in the shop daily I would do it for sure even in the trailer..  Saves a lot of time. 

You can just glue the pink foam sheets together to make the box..  would work a dream. 

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1 hour ago, jlpservicesinc said:

I am often so envious of people who live in warmer climates

But you do live where it's warmer! 

I have a couple magnetic engine heaters and a wrap of fiberglass batt. Over night and the anvil's not quite fresh coffee toasty. 

I have other tricks to warm it up quickly but I don't do much in the shop if it's cold out any more.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Citizens,

Thanks for the great methods for pre-warming a cold anvil,  (in cold weather). 

Let me add one more.

I once picked up a bunch of 'used' electric irons from Good Will.    Plugging them in and placing 2 or 3 on the anvil with a fiberglass blanket,  worked a charm. It did not take long for the anvil to become 'toasty warm".

A good friend of mine had another method. He inveigled an old functionable electric blanket to use for the same purpose.

There are a few other methods to accomplish it. But they are not printable on this "family' type" forum.

Cheers,

And HAPPY NEW YEAR. !

SLAG  & MARG,  (the Marvelous).

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About every shop I worked at has the overhead "tube" heaters. They work great unless the shop door is left open. They are a bit warm to work right under too. Off to the side they are great. Not really a "perfect" place for them but they work well. 

 

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I understand that a cold anvil is more brittle, but I must be missing something about heating the anvil to increase working times.

As far as I understand it, the only relevant variable changing between the scenario of a cold anvil vs. a warm anvil is the dT (temperature differential between the two conducting objects) assuming the workpiece and the anvil have similar values of thermal conductivity. For a workpiece at a yellow heat (around 1830 degrees F), the percent difference in dT between an anvil at 20F and 80F is only 3.37%. This doesn't seem like it would be a very noticeable decrease in working time for me. Of course do I trust all the experienced smiths that agree that it does make a big difference, so I'm wondering what I'm missing here.

Thanks for the replies and discussion!

 

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Mr. Ch...,

An Uncle Izzy Story

I think that the main reason for working on a warm (ish?) anvil is for two main reasons. The first one is to avoid chipping the cold steel. 

And the other reason is a cold anvil will suck up thee iron's heat like a cockroach in the Sahara desert. Continuously reheating said steel is costly and a danged nuisance.

I may be wrong here and if so the gang will quickly disabuse me of erroneous thinking.

I remember decades ago my dim witted uncle, (fathers side) tried to use Dad's cold professional, high quality, axe.  He took one swipe at a tree and left a deep divot out of the axe.

My father just managed to control his temper and not kill dear Uncle Izzy. (but just).

SLAG.

(we called him 'Dizzy Izzy" behind his back).

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Slag:  I believe the said tube heater is a type of infrared heater where the element is enclosed in a quartz tube.  I have used a portable one and they put out a great deal of radiant heat but don't heat the atmosphere much above ambient heat.  I found it good to orient to my work space to heat me but not to heat the shop in general.  You see similar ones on RR platforms and bus stops.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

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Counselor George N. M.,

Thank you very much for the information. You are a champ.

Have a great 2021 !

SLAG.

I'm going to get one of them heaters for my up-coming smithy, maybe two.

(Yeh, I am still unpacking the movers' boxes. most of the smithy is in those boxes.)

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Ah, sorry, yeah. "Radiant" heaters. I call them "tube" heaters because they are confined to a pipe. As mentioned, they heat objects well but take a bit to heat the air. One of those objects happens to be the person working under it. 

One body shop I worked at had one that doubled over in a tight U over the frame machine. It was absolutely miserable to work under when you got up on it to work on the car. 

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3 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

14F here yesterday with windchill. 

Okay so we're on a par, wind chill is NEVER a good thing. Was that your low? It's 15f right now and maybe heading for single digits till late tomorrow. Our humidity is usually lower than yours so cold doesn't penetrate as badly here. 

Being Alaskans we like kidding folk about cold weather but the truth is, the temperature is just a number. If you're cold you ARE COLD PERIOD. Ask Thomas's wife. 

I've worked under "tube" heaters like Das describes, those were generally a gun burner at one end and exhaust at the other. The only way they really warm the air is by warming everything under them and that stuff warms the air, like a green house. IR comes in through the greenhouse walls, warms the soil which warms the air and the walls trap the air. 

If I have a choice I want in floor radiant. You'd be amazed how cold the air can be and still be comfy IF your feet are warm. Warm head, warm feet and you're warm.

Woops, just turned 14f. as I was going to click submit. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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