Frosty Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Thanks John. I knew I had the name wrong but figured I was close enough folk with a memory would straighten it out. That's right, I've seen it on Nova too. I wonder how many channels have aired it? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 I was just searching through some old bookmarks and found this blog from about a person making orishigane that you might be interested in. link removed Pnut If you can't find a chapter just search mypeculiarnature orishigane (chapter number) and you should find it. Exemple mypeculiarnature orishigane (3) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Chicken Smith Posted November 30, 2020 Author Share Posted November 30, 2020 Thanks Frosty, pnut. I'll see if I can find them and shoot them a message. I'll check out your link, pnut. I've got good news, people! I have everything I need for my retort, I just need to assemble it. But in the meantime, I've found another version from Whitlox, that tilts a barrel at 60°, burns wood into coal, and the flames shelter the coals from oxygen. That'll work in the meantime. Horrible grammar, but I have to get back to paying attention to class. Apparently we're turning an orange into an ancient Egyptian mummy on Wednesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Don't forget to mention how the deep nasal Covid-19 test is reminiscent of the ancient Egyptian mummifiers removing the brains through the nose with copper hooks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Chicken Smith Posted November 30, 2020 Author Share Posted November 30, 2020 Ha! I will, Thomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Chicken Smith Posted January 10, 2021 Author Share Posted January 10, 2021 Hi, everyone! I'm back! In my usual fashion, I waited until about a week before my project was due to start it... It's due Tuesday, but I did just finish it a few minutes ago. I'm planning on uploading it to here so you can pick it apart and tell me everything that's wrong with it, (which is probably most of it,) but for right now I'm focusing on getting it to my teacher before Tuesday. (I'm having an actual blacksmith proof read for me, don't worry.) At the moment I'm just finishing up my bibliography, (including this wonderful forum,) and adding some quotes to elaborate on some points I made... one of which I was going to get from this thread, however I can't seem to find it! I'm almost certain it was from here, although I could be mistaken. I do believe Thomas (Powers) wrote that when iron was first being refined you'd be lucky to get enough to make an arrowhead, let alone a ____. (Whatever we were talking about at the time. I think it was a socket axe.) If someone else knows where something like that was said, please let me know. (I've scoured a few other places as well as here for the past half hour looking for this; I'm not about to give up now.) If it really doesn't exist, would someone mind writing that here so I can quote them, please? I think "when iron was first discovered you'd be lucky to get enough iron for an arrowhead from a single bloom" is a reasonable statement. Does anyone agree? Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Dear Chris, It is hard to say how much iron was actually produced when iron was first extracted and it is speculation to try to postulate how it was discovered. Many accounts of the discovery of various metals involve discovery by someone using ore to build a ring around a campfire and the heat smelting small amounts of metal. When iron was first being extracted people would have had experience in the use of furnaces for extracting other metals. By the time people were intentionally heating ore, particularly iron ore, to extract the metal I would think that they would be doing it in large enough quantities to justify the effort. I would consider the arrowhead analogy to be improbable, not enough result for the amount of time and effort to get it. Assuming that all work was done by hand I would think a bushel or so of ore (10-15 kg) might be a reasonable load for a furnace. And assuming that the smelting wasn't particularly efficient, out of the ore you might get a kg or so of bloom. There would be additional losses in working the bloom into workable iron but that is still enough to make a reasonable number or arrowheads. Percentage of output of iron to ore would depend on the ore being used, hematite, magnetite, goethite (bog ore), laterite, or any other source and the heat of the furnace generated by charcoal fanned by bellows and/or wind. This is speculation by an old geologist. So, there are just so many unknown variables I suggest just leaving that statement out of your report. You might include your own experimental proportions but that is all you really know for sure. Comparisons with historic production are too speculative unless you can reference prior experiments, e.g. "A recreation of a bloomery furnace done by (so and so) in (such and such year) and reported in (citation) used X amount of (ore type) and Y amount of charcoal and produced a bloom of Z (weight)." You can compare to other experiments but not to historic practices with any accuracy "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Dont forget iron by itself was not more usable than bronze, it was not until steel was created that anyone had a good use for iron, Raw iron is too soft for most uses and then there is the problem of rusting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Well the usability was that iron ore is found all over the place; but tin for bronze? During the bronze age they were travelling in bronze age boats to *Cornwall* UK to get tin! As mentioned work hardened bronze was as hard as the low carbon iron and a lot easier to use as you could cast it and hammer it! My original statement was that MODERN folks building their first historical style bloomeries were more likely to end up with enough for a fishhook than axes. Way back when they were definitely getting enough iron to make the entire process economical. Did you read any in "The Mastery and Uses of Fire in Antiquity", Rehder ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Chris, One more thing although I know your paper is due tomorrow, the advantage to iron vs. bronze in the early days was that iron was much more available and cheaper than bronze. As Steve points out, iron itself, not steel, is generally no better than bronze for tools and weapons. Being more available and cheaper a farmer might be able to afford an iron sickle or an iron plowshare where bronze would be too expensive for such a mundane use. A king might be able to outfit a much larger army with iron armor and weapons than he could with bronze. Iron deposits are much commoner than copper and, particularly, tin deposits. Having to sail to Britain for tin was about as challenging as asteroid mining would be today. Until smiths learned how to reliably produce steel availability is what led iron to replace bronze. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Chicken Smith Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 Thank you George, Steve, Thomas, I'll have some last minute editing to do in the morning, but that's not an issue. I do recall you saying that now, Thomas, and I think I'll add that it would have been done more economically in the past than it would be done now. I was unaware iron was about as soft as work hardened bronze, thank you for teaching me. I'll have to fix that too. Now for the hard part... feel free to pick apart my paper... realize I only will have an hour or two to fix it, so don't be too picky, as my teacher won't know the difference and it won't be published, at least not for many years until I can reliably say I know what I'm doing. Now for a 30 second rant... I have a friend who was doing her project on how dinosaurs affect us, for some reason, and she had me edit it for her. It took me a little over an hour, and I still have a few other projects for other classes I have to finish by tomorrow night as well, one of which is to write a cookbook. I asked her to get a recipe for muffins for me that I could copy and paste in, ("just get me the link, that'll be fine.") since I was approaching an hour of doing work for her, and she says "no, I think I'll go to bed. E-mail me my edited project and I'll pass it in in the morning." Kids these days, I tell you. Thanks, Chris PS. Should I also think of a fancy ending to my posts here, like George has? "By hammer and hand all arts do stand" sounds awesome, and I think I should think of something similar. Final Project SS.docx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Chris: Generally, quite good, particularly for a H.S. student. However, I do have some factual and editorial comments: Paragraph 1: All steel is "ferrous" by definition. There is no non-ferrous steel. So, "ferrous steel is redundant. Paragraph 1: The part about bacteria is unclear. Iron is not extracted from bacteria but some ores and iron sources are the result of bacterial action. Paragraph 2: Mud is clay + water. The only difference between the 2 is the amount of water present. Page 5: Cite the source of the quote. Page 5: Add date to "Weygers" Page 5: "meteorite is" not "us" Page 5: Iron is not more durable than bronze. Generally, iron will rust away more quickly than copper metals will corrode. That is why iron is much rarer in the archeological record than bronze or copper. Steel may be harder than the hardest bronze but it is more chemically active and subject to oxidation. Feel free to use the "By hammer and hand" quote if you want to. It is the chorus of the song of the Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths of London (early 19th century). "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Also, "olden days" is too imprecise. Olden days as in the 1940s? 19th century? Ancient Rome? 1000 BC? Use better dating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Folks. Iron is as strong as bronze. But iron that has been quenched and then tempered, is much stronger than bronze. Iron replaced bronze slowly in the near east. But it was in use there as early as 1,100 years B.C.E. (with the Hittites and other cultures). The Egyptians knew how make iron and use it. But they did not replace their bronze weapons until after the Assyrians conquered them in 661 B.C.E.* At about that time the eastern trade routes to Iran and Afghanistan (and also the sea routes to Cornwall England), were disrupted and tin became very hard to get. In other words bronze making gave way to iron manufacturing at that time and much earlier. Evidence of steel found as many nodules, in the remains of a Spartan 'smelter', well before the Spartans were finally defeated at the battle of Leuctra, 371 B.C.E. (in other words they were using steel but did not tell anyone). The first date of use may be even earlier than that. (i.e. reported within the last 20 years.) Please note that this note is skimpy by design. A more thorough treatment would take up many pages, and mention a great deal of other facts and examples. SLAG. p.s., Civilizations in sub Saharan Africans stared smelting iron as early as 2,500 B.C.E. and hearths have been found as early as 1,500 B.C.E. that show great sophistication. Africa never had a bronze age. They proceeded from copper to iron. even though they did fashion some bronze items. *the ancient Egyptians often smelted ores that had both copper and iron. they separated them for the copper and used some of the the iron as a slag producing agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Chicken Smith Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 May I quote a couple of things from you, George? And may I have a last name to site you properly? I'm not quite finished reading through the edits; I'll thank everyone on them and upload the edited version in a few moments. 11 hours ago, George N. M. said: Being more available and cheaper a farmer might be able to afford an iron sickle or an iron plowshare where bronze would be too expensive for such a mundane use. A king might be able to outfit a much larger army with iron armor and weapons than he could with bronze. 11 hours ago, George N. M. said: Iron deposits are much commoner than copper and, particularly, tin deposits. Having to sail to Britain for tin was about as challenging as asteroid mining would be today. Thanks for the info, SLAG. I'd add some in, but the project is due today, and you have no sources; although I'm sure it's accurate, I do need to site any info I add. I've added your edits, George. When I wrote "ferrous steel" I was thinking "ferrous alloy." I just took out ferrous. Thank you, you've been extremely helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Chicken Smith Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 I forgot to send the edited paper... Here it is... Final Project SS.docx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 10 hours ago, SLAG said: But iron that has been quenched and then tempered, is much stronger than bronze. Quenched iron is the same as non quenched iron, quenching does nothing to iron and tempering has no effect on iron either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Chicken Smith Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, Steve Sells said: and tempering has no effect on iron either It turns it pretty colours... I was going to point out SLAG's mistake, but I decided it wasn't my place. Thanks, Steve. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Mr. Sells, Are you intimating that bronze is as strong as steel? Quenching makes the iron harder*, but extremely brittle, and the subsequent tempering essentially trades some of that brittleness to a softer condition but much of the added strength is retained. When iron began to replace bronze for "swords" there were still plenty of bronze implements being made, for other purposes. Regards, SLAG. p. s. the crystal structure changes upon rapid cooling, which drastically changes the properties of iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Chicken Smith Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 (That was supposed to be humorous, please don't yell at me.) No, Mr. SLAG, it does not affect iron, it affects steel. Steel's granular structure will change t\to become harder and more brittle; iron's remains mostly the same. (Right, Steve..?) And while we're arguing, there's an unspoken rule that you don't tag people. -CCS (PS. I'm sure you knew that rule, just reminding you.) 5 minutes ago, SLAG said: Are you intimating that bronze is as strong as steel? Also, he had said it was as strong as iron, not steel. On 1/10/2021 at 12:43 PM, Steve Sells said: Dont forget iron by itself was not more usable than bronze, it was not until steel was created that anyone had a good use for iron, Raw iron is too soft for most uses and then there is the problem of rusting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, SLAG said: Quenching makes the iron harder*, Incorrect Slag. For an iron alloy to harden in a quench there MUST be enough carbon to lock the iron molecules together. Iron and steel are two different if related things. Chris needs material that is specific, lumping iron and steel together for the purposes of discussing heat treatment is entirely invalid. The iron common to Egypt was most often meteoric and so typically a nickel iron alloy with numerous trace elements. Tut's dagger is an easy find online. You need to upgrade your reference buddy. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, SLAG said: Mr. Sells, Are you intimating that bronze is as strong as steel? NO but you came close here : Folks. Iron is as strong as bronze. But iron that has been quenched and then tempered, is much stronger than bronze. Ausstinite forms when carbon is trapped in the iron matrix, If no carbon, then no hardening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Mr. Sells, (a.k.a. , Steve), We are both correct. With, perhaps me being somewhat inarticulate. There is some included carbon in most iron due to the heating and carbon monoxide reduction of iron oxide, in the process. Regards, SLAG. I just checked Wiki, it states that pure iron is ductile (it stretches), and is not very strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Iron needs to have more than 0.3 to noticeably harden, that isnt going to happen from the heating and carbon monoxide reduction of iron oxide, as you put it Iron plus carbon equals steel. its either iron or its steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Chris: My last name is Monsson. If relevant, my degrees are in Geology and Law from the University of Wyoming. I have been a black smith since 1978. Good luck and I hope your teacher is impressed. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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