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Herr Frosty,

If you had been mauled,

That fool boss could have ended up in jail for a long time.

Also, a civil court could have awarded you enough money that he might have had to sell his assets.

As a policemen he should have known better.

SLAG.

 

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That's a double bingo. He was an ex cop because he had some serious anger management issues and was given the choice to retire or get his walking papers. It was a matter of public record once I looked. 

And yes, as an ex cop he knew exactly what thin ice he was on but couldn't help himself. 

His 3 partners bought him out to get away from the liability he represented. From what I heard it was sort of a hostile buy out. Sell us your interest in the business or buy all of us out. Period. 

It says a lot that I was his longest run employee at 10 months when his manager quit after about 8-9 months. He made me manager and so quit.

It was sad really. Sociopathy is like that.

Frosty The Lucky.

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You have already been told there are color charts, and between camera settings and computer screens there will always be a color variance in pictures on the forum,  Use the provided charts and stop asking the same question over and over again.  You are over complicating things, exact color only applies to an exact steel alloy, and not all rasps are the same, even from the same company.  There are variances in every melt that effects the end tempering temp needed to get an exact point, and exact hardness is not needed either

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Tempered as a rasp, tempered as a knife, tempered as a hawk?  All of these will be tempered differently and may be tempered differently amongst those groups based on personal preferences.

If you are making a hawk out of it it SHOULDN'T be tempered yellow!   Your  "simple" question is more like "What temperature should water be?"

If you are making something that might be tempered yellow, perhaps a knife blade, then the exact colour will depend on what YOU like in blade hardness.  If you do not know that; experiment!  Make a blade, temper it to a light yellow and test it. If you like it's edge holding and toughness, then you are set. If you find it too brittle temper it darker and test.  Do this till you find the range YOU like best.  I'd save your test blade as a indicator of the proper colour for YOU.

If you have to have EXACT rules for things; then blacksmithing with scrap is not a good fit for you. Perhaps machining of know alloys with specified heat treats for specified results might go better.   Better to be a respected machinist than a frustrated blacksmith!

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The temper colors visible on any steel are superficial.  Any sanding, grinding, or even rubbing can quickly remove those colors and afterwards it would appear the same as an untempered  piece.  

Also, there is no one correct color for the tempering of a rasp.  The temper color (temperature) is highly dependent on the purpose of the object being made.  You could make a tomahawk, a camp knife, or possibly even a straight razor from a rasp.  Each of those should have a different temper which is suited to their purpose.  A picture of a rasp tempered for one of those purposes would not be beneficial to you if you intended to use your rasp for an entirely different purpose.

We aren't trying to be hard to get along with here.  There just isn't a straightforward answer that you seem to want.  It's like asking "What's the best steel to use for making a knife?"  That sounds like a straightforward question, but there isn't nearly enough information for anyone to give a valid response.

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1 hour ago, Steve Sells said:

You have already been told there are color charts, and between camera settings and computer screens there will always be a color variance in pictures on the forum,  Use the provided charts and stop asking the same question over and over again.  You are over complicating things, exact color only applies to an exact steel alloy, and not all rasps are the same, even from the same company.  There are variances in every melt that effects the emd tempering temp needed to get an exact point, and exact hardness is not needed either

Did u know being rude causes grief . your that same rude guy from before. Why is it hard to be polite and helpful . u act like u xxxx gold. Thanks for the info. Ill keep doing my research

 

Edited by Mod34
Edited for inappropriate language
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Swearing at an admin isn't very wise... All the research in the world isn't going to serve as a stand in for experience and experimentation with your setup/procedure. You were tempering at 435F and two blades broke. So they were too hard for whatever application they were being used for at that time.

Personally I like to temper once at 350F, and twice at 325F for an hour each. But I like a hard edge and don't need a tough blade for my daily life. 

When using the oven I put the blade between two firebricks so there is more thermal mass, making the temperature in contact with it more resistant to fluctuations within an oven. The temperature may not be accurate, but for me, it's close enough. 

I strongly recommend being a much more civil with the "old guys". They have forgotten more than you or I may ever learn. You may have more success posing your question something like the following: 

"I have had trouble with finding the right tempering temp on my 1095 knives. My current process is X. I have also tried A, B and C. The knives I tend to make are of Y style and are generally used for Z. However, I have experienced these problems.  If you were to make this particular knife for that purpose what would be your approach and what might be the causes of what I'm seeing?"

Direct questions help you get more direct answers. 

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Get off the net and do your research at the forge!  Test what you will be working with:  Is the blade too brittle?  Is it too hard to sharpen? Does it lose it's edge too fast? those control what "color" you should be tempering to not some color mentioned on the net.

Steve actually wrote the book on knifemaking, (actually a couple of them!)  He gets tired the ten thousandth time he gets asked the same questions that he's already answered. Even tireder when folks don't take the answers provided. (You will get dinged for language too; this site is very strict about that as we often direct kids here; most of us have gotten dinged for language a time or two; don't worry about it; just try to do better in the future.)

So: Folks are going out of their way to try to help you realize that there is not "one ring to rule them all"; or colour to temper at.   Your eye will perceive color differently from every other person's eyes.  Colors appear different depending on printers or even cameras and displays. What color you temper an item to depends on: Alloy, intended use, quenchant, design, personal preferences, etc.  To decide what color is the best for *you*; you need to experiment and test.  It's a pain I agree; but that is the way it's done! 

Traditionally colours were compared to naturally occurring items: Straw yellow, dark straw yellow, cherry red, etc.  As you can imagine the colour of rice straw in Japan probably did not match that of wheat straw in  Kansas.  Again the smith would need to experiment and learn what worked best for them. (I have 2 colours of post its on my door and I've tempered to both of them before!)

I would suggest stop fighting it and glory in it!  Keep all the failed tests and show them off and brag about your work!  I wish every bladesmith could have a hardness tester and Charpy tester!  I'm making do with files (for hardness) and break testing (for temps and grain structure) and "field trials" (for how well they actually work in use).

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1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

Get off the net and do your research at the forge!  Test what you will be working with:  Is the blade too brittle?  Is it too hard to sharpen? Does it lose it's edge too fast? those control what "color" you should be tempering to not some color mentioned on the net.

Im new to the net bro. Iv been forging and thought i can get tips here. For Steve . he should simply not reply. Im not going to let someone talk down just bc their experience or knowledge. 

1 hour ago, Frazer said:

Swearing at an admin isn't very wise... All the research in the world isn't going to serve as a stand in for experience and experimentation with your setup/procedure. You were tempering at 435F and two blades broke. So they were too hard for whatever application they were being used for at that time.

Thank you. Im new to this net stuff. Ill be more clear. But if someone is rude to me . idc who they arr or how old they are. You earn respect. Ill def. Keep experimenting

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Have you Read This First? This will give you some tips on how to get the most out of the site.

Don't let pride get in the way of progress. You are right, YOU earn respect. The guys you're talking about have tens of thousands of hours of experience, much of which they have shared openly with the community. 

With that being said I don't have much else to add, happy forging.

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I'm offline on weekends; which gives me more time at the forge. I hope to finish the camp chandelier I'm working on this weekend and maybe help a student with their 5160 knife they are working on. I gave him some tips last weekend and acted as striker for him to speed things up.  College student; working 1 on 1 at the forge with him lets him see that what I tell him actually works in practice.   

I'm not new on the net; started in the early 1990's back in the rec.crafts.metalworking days---ascii based net newsgroups, was on KeenJunk, was a moderator on the neo-tribal bladesmiths group, subguru at anvilfire, etc still learning a lot here and wincing a lot here at some of the bad info folks have run across on the web, (plaster of paris as a gas forge liner---the horror, the horror!)

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Sir.

1. Colors are a guide. And pictures rarely if ever give a true image of the item since lighting, exposure lenghts and film editing can change the image. My first tempering cycle the metal may come out yellow but by the 3rd cycle its a bluish purple. Oxidation!

2.   Determine the items end use. For instance you mentioned a rasp. Which type? Wood rasp or farriers. Each requires different heat treats.

3. Test items.. To temper in an oven I make 3 test items. Each is tempered at a different temperature. Temperature  range is determined  by the end user of the item. For instance, for a knife with 1084 steel i might try 375 degree F. 400F and 425 F. Each blade is the fashioned, a temporary handle put on then the blade tested to destruction.

4 for old school techniques of file making try ..Antkytherea on you tube. He demonstrates his techniques case hardening tools. 

 

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1 hour ago, Frazer said:

Have you Read This First? This will give you some tips on how to get the most out of the site.

Don't let pride get in the way of progress. You are right, YOU earn respect. The guys you're talking about have tens of thousands of hours of experience, much of which they have shared openly with the community.

Thank you. Im all for honour not pride. I will correct myself. I will check that out. 

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