deepwater Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 I have a brick pile forge using BZN 3000 high alumina soft bricks. I'd like to fill in top two corners with 45 degree pieces to reduce the interior a bit and to aid in improving heat/flame circulation. Is there anything that I can use to morter the fillet pieces in ( about 2" wide on the square sides)? Will anything support the hanging weight at welding temps? I don't really want to spring for Kastolite or similar and am hoping I can use the dreaded, commonly available refactory cement (red devil, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 Yes, there are several brands of refractory cement sold in small amounts for fireplace on wood stove repair. At least one of them is rated to 3000 F. You will find it on the Net. Don't forget to clean and wet refractory surfaces before use the refractory cement to glue things on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted September 4, 2020 Author Share Posted September 4, 2020 Thanks Mikey! Is there a difference between morter and cement? I know the difference in construction but with this stuff the terminology used on those products seems somewhat arbitrary. And yes, I'll remember to butter the surfaces but thanks for the reminder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 Generally speaking, "cement" refers to the material itself, while "mortar" refers to its use between or on the surface of bricks. This isn't a hard-and-fast rule, though, especially since "cement" has a lot of meanings related to sticking things together (both as a noun and as a verb) while "mortar" generally refers to masonry (the construction material, not the fraternal society). Thus, "the bricks were mortared together with cement" and "the bricks were cemented together with mortar" mean practically the same thing. However, while you might call a solvent-based glue used in modelmaking "cement", but you wouldn't call it "mortar". In masonry, "cement" without further qualification usually refers to portland cement, a mixture of lime, clay, and gypsum. Mixed with water and sand, it can be used as mortar; with larger aggregate (such as crushed stone), it forms concrete. "Refractory cement" is a cement designed to withstand higher temperatures than portland cement can. This term usually refers to material used as mortar to hold together refractory bricks; when intended to be used as a flame-face, it's usually called "castable refractory" or simply "refractory". Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted September 5, 2020 Author Share Posted September 5, 2020 12 hours ago, JHCC said: In masonry, "cement" without further qualification usually refers to portland cement, a mixture of lime, clay, and gypsum. Mixed with water and sand, it can be used as mortar; with larger aggregate (such as crushed stone), it forms concrete......... Make sense? Clear as mud, err, cement, actually! Seriously, thank you. That was well described and helpful to me and I'm sure future readers will find that useful as well! Honestly, I was familiar with all that from the construction trades but I was wondering if the "rules" and nomenclature really transfered over to our purposes. I have been looking for a suitable mortar for my needs (described in my original post) in a small enough quantity to not be overly costly to buy locally or ship. Seems like all the typical brands I am finding are only 2000-2300f rated and they seem to be using the terms cement, mortar and refactory somewhat interchangeably. Follow-up questions: if the mortar I use will not be exposed to direct flame but will be approx 1.5-2" behind a 3000f soft IFB, do I still need a higher temp mix or might the 2k rated stuff work? My 2.5 thick bricks certainly don't get that hot on the outside. Too hot to touch, yes, but not 2 thousand degrees! If the normally available retail stuff is not suitable (brands like Rutland or meeco for example, the usual kinds found in better hardware stores ) can Kastolite 30 or missuo be mixed at a suitable viscosity to work as an overhead mortar once cured? Final question for now, how wet should I get my bricks when buttering them? Wipe with a wet rag, soak the bricks in a bucket, or? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 I assume that just dunking the bricks would work fine. Soaking should serve no good purpose. What name do these 3000 F soft bricks gp by? I would like to look into them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 If I'm correct BZN 3000 are Morgan Thermal Ceramic's next step up from the K series of IFB and significantly more expensive. If you sift the aggregate out of Kastolite it's still sticky as all get out so I imagine it'd make a good mortar. You might want to check with a ceramics or pottery supply about what mortar they use in kilns. Just get the brick, kaowool, etc. wet, it doesn't need more than a good surface layer of water to dilute the applied material, mortar, refractory, etc. If you've watched masons lay brick you've seen them dip bricks in a bucket or swiping the existing course with a paint brush hanging in the same bucket before applying the mortar. It ensures as good a bond as can be expected. KUDOS John, that was an excellent description and explanation! I'm thinking sticky material! Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted September 7, 2020 Author Share Posted September 7, 2020 Thank you all for the input! I believe BZN is it's own company. I tried posting a link to the specific bricks datasheet and was chastised so I'm not sure what more I can say. Box is labeled BZN Materials, Littleton, Colorado. They've been holding up quite well, I'm my limited experience. I'm not gentle with things, I've reshaped my forge several times. The bricks I bought were tapered 4" on one end to 4.5" other. They were new old stock from a local plant that closed but the company BZN still has an active website. Each has cracked across the middle from thermal cycling but my frame holds it together without issue. I've intentionally gone heavy with the borax and let it get on the brick. When I rebuilt it the other day (to make it bigger) I pulled apart the brick that was directly under the flame and that had probably 1/4 cup of borax melted onto it over about a dozen sessions. The flux had eaten into the brick about 1/8" at most. Seems durable enough for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 Thanks for the info, Deepwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 If flux has only dissolved 1/8" into the BZN bricks then they're a good IFB for propane forges. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 I wonder if mortaring the bricks on a gas forge is a good idea in the first place due to temperature expansion and contraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 It only depends on whether or not room has been preserved around the brick section's periphery to allow for expansion. Typical electric kilns have entire lids made from soft bricks that are mortered together, without harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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