AlienWired Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 I have 6ft of 5/8th's A36 mild steel coming and also 2 pieces of 1080, 5/8ths x 6ft... Also managed to sneak in a nice 6ft x 1/2" 4140... I was going to make a couple sets of Fire pit tongs and before I asked to inform myself properly, I ordered the 4140 thinking I would use the round stock as my boss stud/pivot.... My thought was that I wanted the most durable and tough "stud" in the boss as possible, and am wondering if my thinking is correct in using the 4140 after proper quenching? the 1080 tool steel is going to be used to make my own personal tongs for smithing as well. Any information to help clarify all this for me would be greatly appreciated and very helpful. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 May I point out that it's easier to replace worn rivets than worn tong bodies. Why 1080 for tongs? Very prone to cracking if cooled in a quench tank! I'd go with A36 until you have done a dozen pair and then think about moving up to a higher carbon alloy. (But then when teaching my kids to drive I didn't start them in a top fuel dragster either.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 What Thomas said. Also, 3/4" square is a good size to use for general use tongs. This gives you enough material for a sturdy hinge joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 And is an excellent workout for your arm tapering the reins down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Unless you have a power hammer or striker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienWired Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 The short , honest and straightforward answer is, because I have only smithed mild steel and have NO idea what xxxxxx I am doing(but I never let that stop me from doing anything.)..... And I bought this steel before I asked.(Lesson learned, though sometimes I like making mistakes like this because I will have stock of supplies of things I didn't use previously. LOL!) Any way I would like to move beyond making S-hooks, bottle openers and other assorted "stuff" and get into making stuff that I can use in my shop for smithing, maybe even get into making my own hammers. I am not into making knives so much... They're just not my cup of tea. I like making garden tools and have made a couple of hand held mini-hoes from mild steel.. But would like to make some more serious implements. So that being the case, I decided to take the next year and a half to learn everything possible about different steels and heat treating processes for them. So, here I am. At 50 years old, I don't have time for training wheels(I've always started things off not knowing what I am doing at all and jumping right in.) and wish to Experiment, Experience and Extrapolate as much as I possibly can to become a better smith. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Looks like you have the right attitude for learning! A bit more knowledge on making tongs. Well, 3/4" square is a good size to start with for tongmaking. For a beginner it's a good learning experience to work it. This is the main reason that tongs are not a first project. However, as an example, decades ago I took a 6 week blacksmithing course at Turley forge. The first day of class he taught forgwelding. By week three we made our first set of tongs. Forging the jaws is a great way to begin seeing and conceiving moving material from one shape to another. You do not need a power hammer or a striker to do this. A 2-1/2# hammer is fine. There are two ways to do the reins. You can draw them out or forgeweld 3/8" round or square to the jaws. In the class the forgeweld was used. Since that time I've met and worked with Smith's who draw out the reins. It's good to know both techniques. Learning to draw out 3/4" stock and learning to forgweld are both important to know how to do. Also I'd suggest getting involved with your local ABANA or finding a smith close by to give you some tips. Alas, this Corona virus makes this difficult, but most Smith's are more than happy to help out, just like here Most important is to have fun and beat a lot of iron. Hope my examples help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 A year and a half to learn everything possible about heat treating---can we call you "Stretch"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienWired Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: A year and a half to learn everything possible about heat treating---can we call you "Stretch"? I've been called a lot worse. "learning" meaning, learning all of the different steels, how to heat treat them all, and all of the different processes involved in hardening and tempering and then experiencing the differences in themselves. heh.... I suspect that would probably be the best way for me to learn is by actual hands on. Whether it takes me 2 months or 2 years, isn't relevant to me but I suspect that in a year and a half I will be well experienced with some of them and have a much better idea of strengths and weaknesses of different steels being used in different applications. @Anvil, finding someone local is a huge problem, there are not many smiths in my neck of the woods that I would consider competent enough to ask any questions. I have considered going to the Amish, locally, but, I found out that many of those folks don't even blacksmith themselves and buy their shoes from PA. In fact, if you look up ABANA in NY.... You will mostly find.......... Arab Bankers Association of North America..... It's sad, really...... Yeh, ALL local events that are within 2 hours of me in the past few months have been all cancelled, no blacksmith meetings of any sort, and I only see that there are 2 that are even IN NY state and they aren't really close to me. So back to doing what I been doing. As I like to say, read a book to learn about how to fish and go hungry.... Or go fishing, maybe catch something and not go hungry. Grab it by the horns..... as they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Took me around 5 minutes to find the New York State Designer Blacksmiths with 5 regions including the Finger Lakes Region---which should be a heck of a lot closer to you than the *1* chapter in New Mexico with more than twice the area of NY State, is to me! My methodology: went to the ABANA website => Affiliates => Map => Search on NY; got the name and did a browser search on that since ABANA just pushed me at facebook. www.nysdb.org => www.nysdb.org/regions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Try Artist Blacksmithiths Association of North America aka ABANA Contact them and they will have a list of local chapters in your area. Then contact them and they will have a list of local Smith's in your area. Or, just continue to reinvent the wheel. Both ways have their pros and cons. I live in Colorado and when I started there was no colorado ABANA chapter. Closest was New Mexico about 300 miles away. Different strokes and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 If ABANA doesn't work for you, just google blacksmiths and/or blacksmith's associations or clubs in your area/state. Some may not have an relationship with ABANA. That's how I found my first one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 BLACKSMITH GROUPS FORUM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienWired Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Took me around 5 minutes to find the New York State Designer Blacksmiths with 5 regions including the Finger Lakes Region---which should be a heck of a lot closer to you than the *1* chapter in New Mexico with more than twice the area of NY State, is to me! My methodology: went to the ABANA website => Affiliates => Map => Search on NY; got the name and did a browser search on that since ABANA just pushed me at facebook. www.nysdb.org => www.nysdb.org/regions Except they aren't having meetings or taking new members due to coronavirus.. they are one of the 2 organizations that are closest to me and NY is a LOT bigger than you think. I am not in the Finger lakes. I am on the border of PA, in the most rural part of NY state that there is to offer. Our closest Wally world is 45 minutes away. Anyway, I live in the middle of the woods for a reason.. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I spent two years in Ithaca NY back in my College days so I may be more aware of the size of NY than most New Yorkers may be of NM. Area of NY: 54556 sq miles Area of NM: 121697 sq miles I was basing my guess off of "Tioga County;" perhaps one the PA groups might be closer. Back when I lived in Central Ohio we used to carpool to the SOFA meetings in Tipp City/Troy as the 2 hour drive was a lot cheaper/fun with a bunch of smiths in the vehicle... Getting in touch with the nearest group(s) and asking them about smiths that might be closer to you is what I'd suggest. We had one guy here who was telling us there were no smiths near him until he contacted the affiliate and found that an officer of the club lived on the same road he did just 1/2 a mile away. I started smithing without the internet or ABANA Affiliate; just with "The Modern Blacksmith" in one hand and a home built forge---no plans available back then either. Why I strongly suggest folks spend time with someone who knows at least the basics! (Also why I coach the College's bladesmithing club and teach an intro to smithing class...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienWired Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 I have that book.... =) I also have a few others. One of the things I love in life is WW1 and that time period before hand, back to BC times. I love scanning the pictures for blacksmithed "stuff"... I used to have a subscription to True West magazine and would scan as much of the pictures as I could to see the blacksmithing, (yes other people scan Playboy...), LOL! Yes, the internet is a treasure trove, I often look at other peoples work and know exactly how they pulled it off, but, I wouldn't assume to be able to duplicate it without practice and even then it would only be imitating. Which is why I try to stay away from learning from other people, so that I do not IMITATE but rather learn for myself and create for myself.(Let's face it though, tongs are tongs, punches are punches, everyone has their own opinions and needs for any given moment in time when it comes to blacksmithing). 4 years ago, my neighbor invited me over for a day of "playing in the forge". I went in thinking I was "Conan" came out dumb founded and stupified at all of the work that I ignored or took for granted over the years that were blacksmithed by others. I started thinking about how many "nails built America".... Including the log cabin that I live in. I went home from my neighbors house that day, and told my wife immediately that "I need to get a forge and an anvil." So, I bought a 125 kilo Ridgid Peddinghaus and a Forgemaster double burner forge, got my propane hooked up, the next year after that I got a JHM 125 pounder so I could drag it outside, cause I also have a wood burning Whitlock forge that I LOVE. I have the luxury of being retired at an earlier age and adopted a "full body" retirement plan that keeps me young, spry and as physically able as possible.. I see other people my age that look like they are 80 and can't judge, but, use as an example selfishly as how I will not live. Thanks Thomas, you're a great wealth of information in your own right and thank you for being so kind. By the way, I love history..... I am thinking about how long the "power hammer" has been around for. I have to imagine that once the Archaimedes screw was developed, the hydro power hammer was not to far behind. =) What do you think? (which is also selfish of me, because I live on 40 acres and a big hill, with 3 natural springs.. and a tractor to build a pond. =) I always GO BIG! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Power hammers were ancient before Archaimedes. It's more effective to search full names than abbreviations. Even if you can't arrange face time with smiths during the pandemic it's good to network with local guys, you never know what deal appears, especially if nobody close knows you're looking. I start guys with 5/8" sq. or 3/8" x 3/4" flat hot rolled mild to learn making tongs. There's plenty of heft to hold heat a while and forge the sections without it turning into a cardio workout. If a person just wants time swinging a hammer I give them a large piece of firewood and a hatched to chop in half crosswise. Twist tongs are a good way to put a useful tool in your hand without pitting a person against a project that is intermediate when they really need to practice basics. The 4140 is generally darned useful steel and makes excellent tongs once you know how to make tongs. They can be made thinner and lighter while being plenty springy tough to provide a solid grip. It's still not a good steel to start with, there's more to forging it than one would think until you've experienced some of it's characteristics. Like you say reading about them doesn't teach you how it feels and looks. Feel is what I consider THE main way to tell what your project is doing. Hearing is #2. Sight is a little down the list, important but in a different manner. The 1080 is maybe your only mistake though there are some darned useful things you can make with it, say: scribes, dividers, wood carving tools, spring tools, etc. Not so much for most smithing tools. We're getting a chuckle out of your estimation of learning about all types of steel and all their heat treatment characteristics and uses in a couple years. A more realistic estimation is a couple few lifetimes and even if you devoted 60-70 hrs. a week new steels, alloys and uses are being developed daily than that schedule could keep up with. On the other hand nobody's really trying to talk you out of experimenting, your sightline may be too high but that's okay. I get the feeling you'll be making things and doing less experimentation than you think. Would you rather play lab tech or make things? I'm a tinkerer and it's taken me decades to limit it to developing something I need or as spare time entertainment. Anyway, if you wish to get serious about exploring high carbon steels and heat treatment, I suggest you buy it a couple feet at a time from one of the companies that supply the blade makers. This'll get you started with steels that have good heat treatment info and lots of anecdotal information available. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienWired Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 WOW! Frosty!!! "Power hammers were ancient before Archaimedes." WOW! I had no idea, but, now you have even researching as much as I can, lol. So traditionally a power hammer is totally acceptable in the shop, but most of us look at "hammer and anvil" as the traditonal methods. You can't even imagine how much I love history... just about as much as I love blacksmithing. OK, 5/8ths is what I am starting with. in both mild steel and the 1080.(though i found out that the 1080 steel is best for making knives, though I stated I don't really want to make knives".. heh. I am not beyond making a nice knife for myself.) I am assuming that the 4140 (stud) that I have planned isn't such a good idea? Is there any better idea? I ASSUMED, taht the springy toughness of 4140 would make for an excellent little stud in the boss of just about ANY type of tongs I made? LOL!!! -- We're getting a chuckle out of your estimation of learning about all types of steel and all their heat treatment characteristics and uses in a couple years. A more realistic estimation is a couple few lifetimes and even if you devoted 60-70 hrs. a week new steels, alloys and uses are being developed daily than that schedule could keep up with. <---- LOL!!! This I do know, but there is a difference between competence, confidence and incompetent confidence...... =) I would like to get beyond the range of incompetent confidence. (which would be arrogance and ignorance?) Thank you for being so graceful in that response, please forgive me, I sometimes make assumptions about small things that are a lot bigger than they appear, but that being said, my inexperience speaks volumes. By the way, I am making FIRE PIT TONGS.... and want to put a 4140 stud in the mild steel fire pit tongs that I will make.. They are NOT BLACKSMITHING TONGS...(although later I want to make some tongs for myself that are like scroll tongs that aren't going into the fire but are tough, durable and won't flex.) someone asked me to make them some "fire pit tongs" so they feel like a "boss" at the party... So I figured I would make him the tongs from mild steel and then put in a 4140 stud to make sure those babies never break. THAT was my entire question. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Historically; it was often much easier to throw people at a problem than designing, building and MAINTAINING a mechanism. Having a half dozen workers who could swing a sledge striking or be set to individual tasks would often be more effective than using a tilt hammer for all but large tasks like a battermill making sheet metal from bloom. ("The Mills of Medieval England" mentions that repairing and rebuilding of water powered mills after floods was an ongoing and expensive part of owning one. For some reason they were prone to water damage...) I've gotten to see a couple of BNKs (Big Name Knifemakers) annotated handbooks on heat treating. Most looked like they had a page inserted for every one bound in covering the differences between what the "official" Handbook had based on commercial practice and 1" cross sections and what they had worked out for knifeblade cross sections, Pattern welding of disparate metals, differential hardening/tempering, etc. AlienWired; do you make use of ILL? There are some books of historical smithing that are not blade focused out there---I still remember running across a "kettle tilter" in one and having to go forge one just because....I've been doing some Viking era and Renaissance era cooking gear for various folks over time too. Biggest problem I have is wanting to have too much equipment in a historical campsite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienWired Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 "Historically; it was often much easier to throw people at a problem than designing, building and MAINTAINING a mechanism. Having a half dozen workers who could swing a sledge striking or be set to individual tasks would often be more effective than using a tilt hammer for all but large tasks like a battermill making sheet metal from bloom." <---- THAT is what I am assuming took place in the majority of cases. After they got away from "abusing the peasants" they called it "Apprenticeship". I have NO idea what ILL is, but, am totally interested in Viking and Rennaisance smithing, mostly the shapes and processes, I am the one of the worst people to ask to "remember the name of something or someone".. however, to me, that is when smiths started getting into the alloying of steels in a basic way that I can understand. It's more "neanderthalish" and then in around what 300 ad>? they started inter acting with British Saxons and their smithing artistry kicked up a BIG NOTCH. I look at japanese swords and I am dumbfounded..... Leaves me drooling at the way they make steels, I often wonder what would have happened if the Vikings tangled with the Japanese back then. (I personally believe that the Japanese would have absolutely destroyed them.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Are you familiar with the Dunning Kruger articles? "Incompetent confidence," yes? It' not a shot, we all do it, can't help it, it's how our brains work. Your thoughts of a 4140 "stud(?)" for a tong pivot is a perfect example of someone with no knowledge or experience redesigning a tool. As has already been said, you want the rivet to wear out, NOT the tong halves. Replacing a rivet can be done in 5 minutes if you make the rivet. If you're really good at it you can make a pair of tongs in 15-20 minutes with enough experience, a power hammer and the tooling. One of the guys in our club makes tongs rather than hunting for a pair that fits. He has two power hammers with dedicated tooling for tongs though. Pick your wear points: 5 minute repair vs, 30+ minute repair. Hmmm? Nah, the overconfidence of ignorance only becomes arrogance when a person becomes so emotionally invested in their own ego, they stop learning. We ALL have that line so keep an eye out for it. Here's a practical learn blacksmithing tip. Sequencing projects. One rule of thumb that determines sequence is: Thin heats and burns faster than thick. So when forging a project you need to determine if thin sections are enough thinner to be at risk and leave them till last. Leaf key ring/zipper pulls are a perfect example. If you draw the stem first chances it'll burn off or suffer burn damage before you get the leaf forged and textured. Make sense? One last thought. I don't feel the need to coach critiques or correcting false assumptions when talking to adults. You're welcome anyway. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienWired Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 Frosty: you wrote - "Are you familiar with the Dunning Kruger articles? "Incompetent confidence," yes? It' not a shot, we all do it, can't help it, it's how our brains work. Your thoughts of a 4140 "stud(?)" for a tong pivot is a perfect example of someone with no knowledge or experience redesigning a tool. As has already been said, you want the rivet to wear out, NOT the tong halves." Even if those tongs are just "Fire pit tongs" for a bonfire? I'd rather have the rivet stay and the tongs last 50 years, they aren't blacksmith tongs. They will never get "cherry hot".. I would hope... They are meant to drop logs in the fire and stir them around a bit. And to be frank here, I've never seen "busted out worn tongs" or someone wear out tongs, I am not even sure how you would "wear out a pair of tongs"unless it's mild unhardenable steel that will flex, disintegrate and generally degrade over time, and even if you did, you just make a new half, no big deal... I enjoy blacksmithing... I've only ever seen someone bust the stud in the tongs after they are cracked, worn, stretched and abused. The biggest abuse in a set of tongs is the stud/pivot point, it is the most stress and the most abused. if a pair of tongs are created correctly, the pivot(rivet/stud) should be locked on one side and the far side or pivot tong should move freely on the pivot joint, so that the pressure of the clamp of the tong is evenly distributed through the material you hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Ahh perhaps you would profit from studying a bit of the history of the Japanese blades and find out when they started to be curved and when they started to be made from better metals. The good viking era swords were probably a lot better than the early Japanese swords were. You may also be a bit misinformed about European weapons vs Japanese ones. I've run into a lot of people who tell me that the Japanese swords were light and European swords were more like crowbars. It's rather funny since the average weight of a Japanese battle sword and an European one were almost identical *and* Japanese swords tended to be thicker than European blades. Also look at the role of Ashi in Japanese swords and why it wasn't needed in European blades. Japanese swords were more dueling weapons than battle blades; their edges did not like metal armour! IIRC there was an episode of "The Day the Universe Changed" that had a middle aged sedentary scholar take an European battle sword and almost cut a side of beef in two with one swing! There are a LOT of "urban legends" about European and Japanese arms and armour. I've had folks tell me that armour was so heavy that people couldn't get up if they fell over. It was funny as I had a friend who was Special Forces Nam and he once told me that he was expected to carry and *fight* with about twice the weight of renaissance armour and it wasn't nearly as well distributed as armour would be. Anyway ILL is Inter Library Loan; it's a method of getting hard to find books sent to your local public library; mine charged $1 a book last time I used it---to get a book I had on an online book search by Amazon for close to a decade with no luck. ("The Metallography of Early Ferrous Edge Tools and Edged Weapons" Tylecote & Gilmour) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienWired Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 Swords in Japan were made from mild steel which in the 1500's or so had a .05% carbon steel content, much lighter. Vikings used iron, much heavier, more carbon, 2 - 4% carbon and needed a lot of mass to survive the abuse of battle, and the weight that durability provides.. Comparing a European battle sword is in no way the same as comparing a sword to a viking axe, or even a sword(which was based more on the Roman gladius and had NO relation to the French designed long sword) that the vikings would make. They aren't the same. Vikings made weapons different than the rest of their European counterparts. The Euro's were a bit more refined in their processes. French designs of the 800's were absolutely astonishing compared to anything made by the Scandinavian's of the time. Vikings never saw painted pictures until 300 AD. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Mr. A. W., 4% carbon in iron brings is cast iron. Not a very useful sword. Would you please append your sources when making 'definitive statements in your posts? "Earnest belief" or "I saw it somewhere on the net" doesn't cut it. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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