Stock questions

[Nathan Kraft]

I am planning to hit up the steel yard tomorrow, and I had a couple questions before I go. I am planning to get two lengths of stock (one each of two different alloys- probably 1018 and 4140). From my googling it seems as though EMJ would be the best place here for me to go, but if anyone else in the Tulsa area has better places, please tell me. I am planning to do lots of beginner projects (punches, chisels, a set of tongs, etc. with the 4140 and hooks etc with the 1018) I was wondering what size of stock I should buy in each, and  should I get square or round stock? Also any suggestions of better projects, alloys, etc. are fully welcomed. Thanks!

[Frosty]

Loosen up on the type you want. If you specify 1018 you'll be spending serious money, ask for mild instead you'll get good beginner'r project steel. I start guys off with 3/8" hot rolled square. It's heavy enough to hold heat for a while so you can develop skills to work well at a faster pace. It's small enough to to move without wearing you out too quickly so you can make pieces start to finish in one session. 

As a FYI 3/8" square and 1/2" round have close enough to the same weight per foot to not matter. I start guys off with square to help learn how to rotate stock 1/4 turn every couple blows to keep heat longer and help keep your work more even. 

I wouldn't advise you to mess with 4140 until you've developed your skills more, it's harder to move under the hammer and is touchier about good heat management. You need those tools though so how about hitting garage/yard sales (WEAR A MASK AND WASH YOUR HANDS!!) and picking up those old: punches, chisels, allan wrenches, pry bars, etc. Heck you can buy an inexpensive punch/chisel set at a big box store for under $20. Just use the ones that suit you and reforge the ones that don't into something that does. 

4140 is wonderful stuff but it's harder to work and easy to ruin, especially when you have good alternatives that will work as well, cost WAY less and not hurt so much when things go wrong. Believe me things WILL go wrong. Making it painless is good, Eh? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Nathan Kraft]

Thanks for sparing me that loss frosty. Would the mild steel work for tongs also? 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Mod30
Remove excessive quote

[Frosty]

Sure mild works fine for tongs I recommend 3/8" x 3/4" for tongs, 5/8" sq works well and you can get away with 1/2" sq. but expect a few more to break or bend in use until you get tong making down. Personally I like coil spring with a wire size around 3/8" round. Being spring you can make tongs lighter weight but stiff enough to hold well. You have to be careful to never cool them i water if they reach red heat, they will become brittle. Expect failures too , used springs tend to have micro fractures that will show up RIGHT when and where you don't want them. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Nathan Kraft]

Thank you very much, I think now I’ll get one length of 3/8 and one of 5/8 square stock of mild steel. I’m very glad I thought to ask before I bought a lot of expensive steel and ruined it. To clarify, is there any specific type of chisel or punch I should buy? Also what kind of tongs would be a good first pair to make?

[Frosty]

I don't know what size punch, most of what you see in the sets are tapered and not hole punches. Most of the chisels in sets are cold punches and work pretty well as is. If they don't work for you reforge them if nothing else it'll be good practice. In large part I think of these sets as stock to make tools from. 

Don't quote me but I think rivets in tongs are usually 5/16". Hopefully one of the guys who knows will speak up.  

Frosty The Lucky.

[Rojo Pedro]

My supplier has 1 and 3 foot sections of all shapes and sizes. It is cold rolled so a little more expensive at $1.59 a pound.  
 

when I was starting I got a bunch of square and round from 1/4” to 7/8” just to mess around. Think I spent like $25

I also recommend automotive springs for tooling they are pretty much free or scrap. Railroad spikes are a good size for mild stock

I found my lack of tongs and the ability to hold the different size stock was limiting at first.

Good luck and have fun Soon your scrap pile will be yuge!

[Frazer]

If you're buying 3/8 and 5/8 sq stock from a supplier it's going to be the cheapest to buy a full length. At my supplier this is 20' for hot rolled stuff and 18' for cold rolled. It seems like a lot of material, but you'll use it up. I like the 5/8ths sq for tongs, and I use 3/8 round when weld on the reins. I do have a pair I made with a coil spring and I agree that they are definitely more rigid than my mild steel ones.  While I'm at the supply I usually poke around the surplus section where they sell all their drops by the pound. This is were I grab all the miscellaneous other sizes I don't use as often, but still need from time to time. Usually larger cross section stuff. I don't know if your place will have a similar section, but if they do it's always worth looking around in there.

P.S. The guys in the warehouse like when you bring them something (a bottle opener or whatever) that you made with their steel. The guys at the front desk will too, but they won't give you a discount on anything because of it. The guys in the back know where to find everything and can let you know where all the goodies are! 

[Steve Sells]

I can not see using 4140 for chisels or punches

[Frazer]

Spring steel works well for those in my experience. Plus I get those for free at a car dealership by me that lets me go through their scrap stuffs. Free and functional is good. 4140 makes me think hammers, not edges.

[ThomasPowers]

When you ask for "mild steel" you will probably get A-36.  It used to be "mild steel" was commonly 1018 or 1020 both of which are a elemental spec: Plain steel with 18 or 20 points carbon, (100 points == 1%), and a bit of Manganese to scavenge sulfur.  A-36  is a properties spec: the steel will have a yield strength of NOT LOWER than 36K PSI.  So as you see A-36 can have more variability in what's in it and even has been known to harden if quenched in water---so it all gets normalized in my shop after forging.

My "get them hooked" class for raw beginners uses 1/4" sq stock, hot rolled if I can find it cold rolled if I can't.  Lots of simple projects you can do with 1/4" sq stock and being so small it doesn't take a lot of hammering stamina for new smiths.  Not being time bound like a class, I would look into 3/8", mainly sq but throw in a round piece every now and then to learn the differences in working it.

[Nathan Kraft]

Isn’t a36 generally much more annoying to work with? Also how would I go about finding classes in my area? I’ve looked around and as far  as google shows, there aren’t many forges near me and those that exist don’t have classes available I think(?).

[Frazer]

90% of what I make is using A36. I wouldn't consider it annoying in any way? What do you mean by annoying? 

As far as finding classes, I would use your preferred internet browser to see what's near you. Check if there is a local/semi-local ABANA affiliate that has meetings and get in contact with them. 

[ThomasPowers]

May I commend to your attention the Salt Fork Smiths: https://www.saltforkcraftsmen.org/

Get in touch with them and ask about smiths local to you.

I would also point out that the American Bladesmiths Society school in Texarkana isn't horribly far from you if you have bladesmithing inclinations.

I started out in OKC in the early 1980's with only a copy of "The Modern Blacksmith"; tons more info out there now!

[Nathan Kraft]

I meant that with the variation I’ve heard that at times a36 can be really hard to work with certain pours. Also thanks for explaining what 4140 would be for, I was confused. I’ve looked at the ABANA chapter, but the calendar is quite confusing so I’m not really sure when/where the meetings are.

 

LOL I’m a bit dumb. I hadn’t even thought about contacting smiths from there. You’re right that Texarkana isn’t really far, but I still probably couldn’t get a ride anytime soon. 

[ThomasPowers]

Well all the meetings are probably on hold during the current Covid-19 pandemic; but you should contact them and see if you can get on a mailing list for when they start back up again.  Some groups will have membership lists providing you with people you can get in contact with.  Just remember some of the best smiths are likely to be offline folks!

As I recall they have the state divided in quarters?  and had meetings in each one; with everyone welcome to attend any meeting they were interested in.  So you will probably be relatively close to a meeting when they start back up.  Back in the 1990's in Central Ohio we got a group of local smiths together to carpool the 2 hours to the SOFA meetings.  Saved money and was a great time; (Note that critical mass for blacksmiths is a pretty small number!)  We would stop at a fleamarket along the way and buy smithing tools cheap.

[Frazer]

I cant say I have ever noticed any variation personally. Like all steel (especially when you're not concerned about decarburization) work it hot and it will move easier. Now are there easier materials compared to A36. Wrought iron and very low carbon steels are very "squishy". While spring steels, tool steels, high carbon steels, etc. require a noticeably more effort to forge. But I've never noticed any difference when using "mild" steel. Which from my supplier is indeed A36. Perhaps my sample size is too small, if TP says he notices some variation then I believe it. But is it enough of a difference to make a difference to me or someone just starting out? I don't know, but I doubt it.

The websites for many of the blacksmithing organizations can be a little clunky. Although looking at the link provided by TP if you have any questions about items on the calendar I would call anyone listed in the contact tab and talk to them, I'm sure they'll be happy to provide you with more info.

[ThomasPowers]

As I use a lot of scrap, I can definitely "feel" when stuff is cleaner and lower in carbon---forges more like WI but without the need for such a high heat.  Things like leaves never have issues with cracking at the stems.  You can work it way down towards cold.  However I'm not willing to pay the extra to get it new and so just use A-36.

[Frazer]

I've been working with a lot of old, well, let's go with less-modern, RR spikes. Some are wrought iron and some are steel, but a very low carbon steel that forges really easily. Noticeably easier than the mild steel I buy. It makes for short work since it moves so fast. Now would I use one to make a tool? No probably not, but for what I'm doing they work a treat. 

A36 is just the standard when buying new so I would go for that. Any variation between pours I wouldn't expect to become "annoying" compared to the variation when forging alloys that are made for very different applications. You may not even notice until you have hand as calibrated as TP's.

[ThomasPowers]

The fun part is when you "mix" alloys in a single project---usually ornamental stuff where you are making use of it's previous use shapes.  I've run across repair work on farm equipment where one strut may be 1080 and the other exact one, real wrought iron.  Guessing it was done in the 1930's when they used whatever they could scrounge.  Hence the rule for using scrap: TEST!  Never assume what alloy it will be>

[Nathan Kraft]

Alright, I was confused from previous posts on a36. Thanks for clarifying it for me. If I want to use scrap, what places should I look besides machine/fab shops?

Also, it turns out I don’t have a ride today, so I will be going tomorrow if they’re open, and Monday if not.

[Frazer]

Jeez... I mean the short answer is everywhere..

If you have a scrapyard near you that lets you walk the yard there is a little but of everything in there. Collision shops and dealerships always have a scrap bin where they put the old parts to send off as scrap. Tractor repair places, anyone with a farm, garage sales, on the side of the road, on the RR tracks (just remember that is the RR company's property), anywhere that uses, repairs, fabricates, etc. will produce metal waste that may be suitable for forging.

When trying to identify what alloy you have found, understand that you'll never be sure. You can make informed guesses based off things like the spark test and what the item was used for before it came to you, but yo'll never be sure. Always be sure to test a piece of mystery steel before dedicating any long period of time on a project using it. 

Pretty much everyone has a lot of metal scrap laying around, both individuals and businesses. Especially businesses that deal primarily with things that are made of metal. It's just a matter of finding someone who is willing to let you poke around and take what they have no need for. One man's trash... as the saying goes. Like I said, I stop by a dealership near me and they let me go through their bin and take whatever. Not everywhere will let you do that. Liability and all the rest. However, some people find it interesting when you say what you plan to use it for.

[Frosty]

I blanked on A-36 being the modern "mild" steel though I knew folks with lesser dents would remember. It's good to have backup.  The lower consistency of A-36 is usually pretty minimal but folks tend to exaggerate when relating perceived issues, mountains from mole hills. Unless you run across one of the rare large inconsistencies a beginner isn't likely to notice. Given a few years experience and you start to notice slight changes. For example I can forge in direct sunlight because I can judge the steel's condition through tong, hammer and ear. How it sounds is often a better indicator than how it looks, even under dim light. 

Developing a feel and ear for the steel is important and easy to learn, just pay attention to how it sounds as you work it, your reflexes will correlate to how it feels in your holding hand and hammer reaction automatically. Speeding this "muscle memory" effect is faster if you use stock long enough you don't need tongs. The more things between you and the work the more muted the feel and more experience required to read the steel.

Make sense?

Frosty The Lucky.

[BillyBones]

A note on tongs. 

All my tongs with the exception of a very old set of hammer tongs are A36. The nice thing about mild steel tongs is when they get hot you can quench them in the slack tank. High carbon may harden and break. I also use 1/2 round for the reigns. Forge the working end from what i need and weld on reigns. My rivets are 5/16 or 3/8 depending on what i have on hand at the time. 

[ThomasPowers]

Tulsa?   Oil patch repair and maintenance companies, especially the small ones.  Oil patch welders.