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The Absolute Last Final Word on Anhydrous Borax Flux


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You don't have to heat steel up to the maximum temperature it can exist (melting temperature) in order for it it weld. Hence, I submit that IMO there is no slush and no liquidus-ness; a solid state weld pure and simple.

The only liquid on/around the weld should be the flux. If you start to melt the steel or "turn it into a slush" that is too hot and you're just wasting material.

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19 minutes ago, anvil said:

it seems liquidus is the max temp a solid can exist and the minimum temp at which a liquid can exist

This is not correct. Liquidus IS the maximum temperature at which a solid can exist, but the minimum temperature at which ONLY a liquid can exist. Solidus is the maximum temperature at which ONLY a solid can exist, and the minimum temperature at which a liquid can exist. In between (when they are different) is the "freezing range" -- i.e., slush. 

For example, consider steel with 1% carbon. Up to about 2550°F, the iron is completely solid, composed entirely of austenite (face-centered cubic crystals). Above that temperature, it changes to a mixture of austenite and liquid iron. Above about 2720°F, all the remaining austenite melts, and all of the iron is completely liquid. In this example, 2550°F is the solidus, 2720°F is the liquidus, and in between is the freezing range. (These figures are approximate, but close enough to demonstrate the point.) 

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50 minutes ago, anvil said:

it doesnt appear to be a term found in the phase change charts for ferrous metals

The term may not be there, but the iron-carbon phase diagram does show such "slushes". In the example above, this is within the area usually labeled "γ + L", where "L" is short for Liquid and "γ" (the Greek letter gamma) stands for austenite (as opposed to "α" (alpha), which stands for ferrite).

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Of course this depends on homogenous materials; much like all those physics equations based on perfectly elastic collisions between perfect spheres in a vacuum.

While I have taken MatSci classes; I maintain that one can be a truly awesome smith without knowing all the fiddly details; but by just knowing how steel works in the forge!  (Now knowing more of the fiddly bits can help out in heat treating blades.)

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1 hour ago, anvil said:

this "slush" state does exist. Its the transition between two states and, as best I can figure, is the reason for holding our steels at a specific temp for a particular amount of time. First its one, then both states exist, then it becomes the other.

Not all materials go through such a state when either melting or freezing. Salt water does, but pure water (where the liquidus and the solidus are both 32°F/0°C) does not. It is possible to have both solid and liquid water together at 32°F/0°C, but that only happens when there's either too little energy present to melt all the ice or too much to freeze the liquid water. 

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I remember back in advance placement chemistry in high school that the temperature range from 100% solid to 100% liquid was an indicator of the purity of a chemical sample.

Unfortunately my instructor would not let me extract cyanide from natural sources so I had to extract caffeine from Tea.   (Very smart instructor!)

As a phase change requires energy or releases energy depending on which way you are going this results in being able to see the phase change taking place by watching the "shadows" in the piece as it's heated or cooled.

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Thomas, that is correct, distillation works kind of similar, where your mixture will stay at the lowest boiling point of the compounds in mixture, until completely evaporated.

The analysis you describe is used in organic chemistry to get an indication of purity after synthesis.

What this basically means is that the more pure something is, the shorter the range of the transition is. 

~Jobtiel

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On 10/21/2021 at 1:40 PM, ThomasPowers said:

I maintain that one can be a truly awesome smith without knowing all the fiddly details; but by just knowing how steel works in the forge!

Got me pegged as one who knows how it works in the forge, and trying to learn about the fiddly bits found in books. It took me at least 3 semesters to get thru first year chem.  Turley gave a very short but very concise class on metallurgy.  He finished it saying if you want more of this,,, RTB(read the book). Basically he gave me the confidence to deal with most any modern steels as long as I had a spec sheet and do it in a coal forge, with water or oil, and a bucket of lime. It's served me well. 4 or 5 years ago when smithing began on facebook I saw "fiddly details" coming from the knife guys that seemed to contradict my experience and very limited book learning. Definitely i got a particular body part buried deeply in the dirt when I presented my traditional oriented views. I also realized it was more due to semantics than anything else. Mine based on that of the traditional smith, they more on contemporary metallurgy. So I decided to follow Turley's advice,,, RTB. Thus Verhoeven enters my life with me fighting chem 101 every step of the way all over again. Dang'd terms!  This is just to let all know that my knowledge of this is slim and basically I'm trying to fit what Turley said, And I accept, into this conversation. My conclusion up to now with this post is that what JHCC is saying is what I believe. However we have a semantics and, perhaps, a logic problem. 

 

On 10/21/2021 at 1:14 PM, JHCC said:

Liquidus IS the maximum temperature at which a solid can exist, but the minimum temperature at which ONLY a liquid can exist.

You make this statement and one similar for solidus. I believe I understand where you are going, but, I believe you are using faulty logic. 

"but the minimum temperature at which ONLY a liquid can exist" If this is true, then a solid cannot exist at this temp because ONLY a liquid can exist at this temp.

Your statement(s) are logical if and only if you remove the word "ONLY". If you do this, we are saying the same thing. "Thats my logic, and I'm sticking to it" Lol, a good line for a high tech country western song!  

I also believe,as you stated above and depending on material, perhaps that there is a single temp where this happens or a temp band where this happens. If its a single temp, then depending on the mass, and keeping temp constant, assuming we are on a rising heat, there will be a time where the solid and the liquid are in equilibrium. If there are differing temps for solidus and liquidus, then depending where you are in the temp zone,  will determine the proportions of solid and liquid. If I were a in college and a metallurgist, this would be my hypothesis for an experiment.

I also agree with Thomas. In this day and age, Traditional metallurgy got left behind. Thus you can "only forge weld low carbon steel". And thats why there isnt much modern info from the contemporary steel industry on forge welding.  I also think that when I was dealing with Carpenter Tech(tool steel producer) as a traditional smith dealing with their product, they asked  me questions about heat treating and forge welding as a blacksmith. We came away knowing that the basic principals of the past applied to both of us and that I could successfully deal with their product as a traditional smith.

On 10/21/2021 at 12:56 PM, Frazer said:

The only liquid on/around the weld should be the flux. If you start to melt the steel or "turn it into a slush" that is too hot and you're just wasting material.

No, I sling, tap, or wire brush all that gradoo off my steel when i leave the fire. Generally there's none of that when I do the FW. I stated earlier that I could still see the swirling look at the anvil, but I will amend that and say I've most likely never looked at that stage of the game. I will say that with a drop the tongs weld, if you dont pay attention and touch the top piece to the bottom piece, they will stick together. So make sure you are where you want to be when they touch. 

Turn into slush is a poor term, even tho its what I used. When you have a reducing fire and are at a lemon yellow, And your fire color and steel color match, the bar looks and feels solid to the eye. This May be a state called liquidus and this May be a Mix of both solid and liquid. When you strike with a hammer, the liquids flow and bond. Maybe not. 

Other than scale and perhaps a bit of time I dont think material is wasted until you see sparks. 

  

 

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7 minutes ago, anvil said:
On 10/21/2021 at 3:14 PM, JHCC said:

This is not correct. Liquidus IS the maximum temperature at which a solid can exist, but the minimum temperature at which ONLY a liquid can exist. 

You make this statement and one similar for solidus. I believe I understand where you are going, but, I believe you are using faulty logic. 

"but the minimum temperature at which ONLY a liquid can exist" If this is true, then a solid cannot exist at this temp because ONLY a liquid can exist at this temp.

Your statement(s) are logical if and only if you remove the word "ONLY". If you do this, we are saying the same thing.

Let me rephrase: liquidus is the lowest temperature at which a material can be completely liquid, and solidus is the highest temperature at which a material can be completely solid. If the liquidus and the solidus are the same, then the material can be either liquid or solid at that temperature. If the liquidus and the solidus are different, then when the material is at a temperature in between, it will be a combination of liquid and solid.

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One issue with RTB is that the books often are not written with respect to what we are doing. (And how we are doing it.)  I once saw Daryl Meier's copy of a well known handbook on heat treating steel and there were a very large number of inserted pages with how heat treating blades differed in practice from the "industrial" suggestions. 

A big one is that most heat treat info is based on a cross section of 1"   You know any blades 1" thick?  This is why you often can slide one quenchant less aggressive (water to oil, oil to air, etc---depending on alloy).  Also the slide can throw you off when you find that something has hardened on you unexpectedly! (O-1, in thin crossections, hardening in air has a history of surprising folks.)

 

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I still got you on the logic. And I'll settle for your second one.  ;)

If A exists at temp x and B exists at temp x, then both A and B can exist at temp x. It cant be either/or for the same material. Beyond this, I agree with your statement.

RTB, it definitely depends on what you read. Thats why I brought up Verhoeven. 

I've discussed the 1" crossection deal ad infinitum. You may find actual steel spec sheets from a steel producer that qualify their stats with anything similar to NOTE: these specs are for crossections 1" or larger, but its not the norm.. I have seen manufacturer/producer specs that give alternatives for both times, temps and quench for such things as "smaller" including 3/8" or 1/2" or 1/4" or 5/16" sizes for the general steels. we all use. All of which fall into the parameters of knifemaking. I have found specs from steel retailers, not manufactures, that support what you are saying. I believe this is a retailer CYA deal so when a guy who knows very little cracks a blade when quenching, they are covered. Also there is plenty on the internet that supports your statement. 

Its pretty common knowledge, for instance that if you want to be safe when using high carbon steels like 1095/W1, in thin crossections, then quench in oil. However, if you learn how to temper these same steels in water, its not a problem. I believe when doing this there is a tradeoff between hardness and toughness. 

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52 minutes ago, anvil said:

If A exists at temp x and B exists at temp x, then both A and B can exist at temp x. It cant be either/or for the same material. Beyond this, I agree with your statement.

If the liquidus and the solidus are the same, then the material is either liquid or solid, but not both. If liquid water at 32°F loses enough energy, it freezes and becomes solid ice at 32°F; there is no point at which pure water is both liquid and solid at the same time. It is possible for some quality of water to be partially frozen, but that’s not the same thing, as it is at least theoretically possible to separate the solid ice from the liquid water without any change to either. In the example of 99% iron + 1% carbon at 2600°F, on the other hand, if you somehow managed to separate the austenite from the liquid iron, some of the austenite would melt, because 2600° is above the solidus of approximately 2550°F. At the same time, some of the liquid iron would crystallize into austenite, as 2600°F is below the liquidus of approximately 2720°F.

Such nitpicking aside, the fact remains that any forge welding is going to be done at temperatures well below the both the liquidus and the solidus of the steel. Remember that liquidus is a temperature, not a state — at welding temperatures, the steel does not become some kind of “liquid-like solid” that melts together. 

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19 hours ago, JHCC said:

Such nitpicking aside

I appreciate your input. And sometimes a little nitpicking is necessary. And a thanks. I did think of liquidus as a state, not a temp. Progress. My definition above comes from a 40 year memory. I stress that i make no claim that my memory of its source is valid. So the first thing I did was do a google search for liquidus. Google corrected my spelling and a dropdown said "definitions". I read a few and one basically stated what you say in your definition. Another supported my memory. Both had what appeared to have good references. More confusion. Im going to quote that definition because it does a better job than I can do. Because they focus on glass and liquidus, if you click on the highlighted "alloy", you will see that steel alloys are included. My next step is to find the liquidus temp for an alloy I'm familiar with and see where it lies in the color charts. This isnt a major issue, its just a curiosity for me and thanks, JHCC, for your input.

"above" and "co-exist" are the key words here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidus

"The liquidus temperature, TL or Tliq, specifies the temperature above which a material is completely liquid,[1] and the maximum temperature at which crystals can co-exist with the melt in thermodynamic equilibrium. It is mostly used for impure substances (mixtures) such as glasses, alloys and rocks."

 

22 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

 You know any blades 1" thick? 

I recognize your humor.  My answer to that is my work is architectural in nature, not as a tool smith. I make needed tools for me and my projects. I don't normally sell tools. For this reason when I make a tool, I always review my sources for temps, times, and techniques. My primary sources are a Carpenter Tech manual, Uddaholm Steel spec sheets and my newest, The Heat Treater's Guide Companion. My basic assumption with these sources is that their primary purpose is to give me all the needed data needed to maximize their product. For this reason, if they don't list any special situations, the spec sheets apply. As an example I will use O1 and W1/1095. With O1, in these three sources they do not list any special situations concerning crossection or quench medium. For those who dont know, the O stands for oil quench, and the W stands for water quench. In these three sources, there is no indication that O1 or O2 can be air hardened in any crossection. It doesnt mean you cant, but certainly ought to explain just why " hardening in air has a history of surprising folks". There should be no surprise. You are not hardening it, you are normalizing it.

On to W1. two of the three sources state quite clearly that W1 can be oil quenched in small crossections. They indicate that this will aid in preventing warping and stress cracking. Carpenter Tech states "may" and does not define "small". Uddaholm steel basically leaves out may and says "can". The heat Treater's Guide does not state oil at all. However for 1095 they do indicate using oil for .19" crossections. Considering that W1 and 1095 are very similar, an oil quench for small(.19") crossections MAY be used. 

Because these sources do list these specific conditions for these steels, and they list other specific situations in their specs for other steels, I believe my assumption is valid for any crossection.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well…it’s flux.

Anhydrous Borax Flux is great for jumpstarting an auction, providing you know what you are up to. But this knowledge  is not my concern. My concern is borax flux and how it relates to welding metal seams--specifically aluminum, steel, or stainless steel electric power conduit. The process I am about to describe can be applied by any competent welder but my purpose here is just to illustrate the use of anhydrous borax flux in order that its usefulness may be more broadly known or understood by those engaged in professional welding or teaching related skills courses--not just electricians and/or plumbing contractors who already use it on a regular basis. However if you are looking for best welders for Aluminum follow the link -[commercial link removed]

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Flux in TIG welding ? Ok thats a new one on me in 40 years of doing it for aluminum, stainless and steel never have I used a flux or needed it ! Clean your work , tight fit, match your filler wire to the work and Argon Purge gas is all you need as far as I know ! You'll have to explain your theory on this because you never want to add any contaminants especially to aluminum , your just asking for trouble if you do ! Yes heat management is always important in all welding but aluminum especially if you let it get to hot it will fall out on you " burn through" ! I'm still learning about forging and understand the need for flux but never in TIG, MIG or even Stick welding . The closest thing I can attribute to it is an anti-splatter spray for mig welding but that is to protect the work and does nothing for the weld. Now I am always open to learn new tricks but this just doesn't sound right to me at all . Now I could be missing the point "maybe your trying to push welding machine's" so please do explain sir ?

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How so DJ? Did I miss you misbehaving or something, was it a choice infraction?

I doubt this latest spammer is still watching the forum but if he still is you could PM him. I'll bet the only explanations he has is how one of their welders will solve all your problems, help you lose weight and improve virility. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Lol, no not lately Frosty but my filter is broken and I have been warned a few times already on here by the moderator who makes sure to tell that they never go away :unsure: . I have a habit of being strait forward with colorful language shall we say , I guess it comes with being a construction worker all my life. There was  usually more F's flying in the shop than a Ford truck factory. lol 

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Admin can't do anything about that stupid, zero points that never go away penalty message, it's part of the OS they use. 

I usually read my posts a couple few times, sometimes preview them to avoid mistakes. Serendipity ensures my typos would make Murphey shake his head in wonder. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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True but they don't count. Honest you can have thousands of zeros in your "record" and they don't do a thing. On Iforge your nothing is forever.

All moderation or worse  decisions are made by humans and confirmed by Glenn. The forever pointless warnings are just there, a mod can't alert Admin about a problem post without pushing that button and bingo you have another forever pointless warning in your file. 

I suppose the thinking of the writers is to "Make us AWARE." :rolleyes: Someone up here sold DOT on these expensive radar warning sign posts. They are about 10' above the pavement and as you are drive past they start flashing whatever speed the vehicle within about 75' is traveling. Not necessarily yours, they make you aware of your speed if you're going the other direction too of course.

The thinking is to make people aware of their speed, the unintended consequence is it gets people to first take their attention off the road and traffic by looking up and away from the road, then back down to their speedometer. There's several seconds at highway speed we don't need to be paying attention to what's going on around us. 

After a while the only danger is from people who actually brake when one starts flashing. Nobody else pays any attention. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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