Store bought hammers vs hand forged hammers

[JeepinBoon]

Hello all, first post. I have a 79# Hay Budden anvil that, in my opinion, is near mint. So far, I have only hammered out business card holders and hat hangers from silver forks on it. Last weekend, I got a Mouse Hole 148# with LOTS of wear. My main concern is damaging these anvils. My main question is.. Would you use a modern store bought hammer or a hand forged hammer on either anvil? My second question is.. If the hardened steel top layer of your anvil has smushed out and curled over the edge of your anvil, would you grind it flush to sides or let it break off as you work? I'm not going to *cough* restore *cough* an 1820-1830 M&H anvil unless the top delaminates. Then I got a forklift fork to stick on it. 

[Chris Williams]

First, handmade versus store bought... That is too general of a question for the answer to be useful to you. For learning, any cross peen 1.5-2lbs is fine. You'll want to dress the edges -- check out the hammer forum for how.  Use the mousehole until you are hitting what you intend to. 

As for those mushroomed edges, you need to dress those to remove the overhang and any cracks or splits before using so that you do not create projectiles from the shards when they do let go.  They can cause you or anyone nearby serious damage! 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome aboard... I always suggest reading the Read This First thread located up in the blue banner. It is full of tips to help you get the best out of the forum like editing your profile to show your location plus many others and some may help in flying under the moderators radar.

As far as which hammer to use, it doesn't matter as long as the faces are properly dressed and you have learned hammer control. As far as sticking a fork lift fork on an anvil to replace the factory hardened face it is not recommended. I suggest reading the Repairing and Modification to Anvils section.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard, glad to have you If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many members live within visiting distance. I think I'd leave the Mouse Hole be for now, maybe use it to hold bottom tools. You can think about dressing the edges and putting it back to work once you have some hammer skills built up.

The Hay Bud is plenty of anvil to do most work on, just be careful not to hit the edges with the hammer. You want to hit HOT steel with the hammer, NOT THE ANVIL. Right? 

Any smooth faced hammer under 2lbs is a good hammer to learn with, I recommend a 32oz. Drill Hammer, they are heavy enough to make do good work without making mistakes permanent quickly to learn to correct. It's also light enough not to tire you too quickly and is less likely to cause injuries before you build the muscle and hammer control techniques to do good work without hurting yourself. 

Keep your eyes open for another larger anvil if you wish but without being able to evaluate the damage to the Mouse Hole I'd put her in semi retirement. The Hay Bud is an excellent, near mint condition anvil. It'll do anything you want for years to come. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Chris Williams]

You may have noticed that Frosty and I have quite different perspectives on anvil use. This is an honest difference in opinion, and despite my respect for Frosty's opinions, a difference that remains for now.  You may also wish to consider Frosty's decades versus my short years of experience when considering whos advice to take.  To Frosty's point, 

56 minutes ago, Frosty said:

without being able to evaluate the damage to the Mouse Hole I'd put her in semi retirement. 

if the MH damage were bad enough, then working on it could also be a problem, either in causing additional damage to the anvil (which I had considered), or by causing damage to you (by releasing pieces when you strike as a result of cracking already present under the face, and which I had not considered).  In addition, it may have delamination that would make working on it much less effective. I spent several years performing failure analysis of and developing repairs for NAVY aircraft in my first job out of school, and am quite comfortable evaluating the extent of damage to something in person. Perhaps I miss-attribute that skill set and judgment to others; I certainly cannot judge the soundness of the Mousehole from your picture, but rather had expected for you judge that. 

Now I've almost talked myself into Frosty's position... Either way, the main point that I came to make is underlined above. 

[Marc1]

I didn't know there are different perspectives on anvil usage. I thought they are meant to give a surface to squash hot iron on ... but hey ... what would I know

Come to think of it, they can be used to kill or try to, road runners, as counterweight for Trebuchet, blow them up to see how far they can fly, my brother has one on his bookshelf holding up a row of books ... how about we start a thread named ... perspective on uses for anvils 

As for hammers, that is really irrelevant, since the hammer is supposed to hit the anvil only accidentally, and home made or factory made they can both be too soft or too hard, so again, provenience means little. 

As for your mousehole, it is a piti to hammer on that area with no faceplate left. i would seriously consider to find someone experienced in fixing her and give her a new lease of life. welding a piece of something on her is not what I would consider ... but it is not my tool. 

[ThomasPowers]

If you are worried about dinging an anvil's face with a hammer you can draw the temper on ANY hammer head to make it softer than the anvil's face. (Remove handle; toss in oven, draw to an appropriate hardness, rehandle. As you don't need to reharden; the heat treat is quite simple and easy!)  I have a couple of hammers that are softer than others; one was a commercial hammer that was in a factory that was bombed and is now dead soft, the other was a homemade hammer---probably from a truck axle.  When I teach; I often "suggest" using these hammers to students who "hammer like lightening---never hitting the same place twice!" Hammers are easier to dress than anvil faces!  Also properly dressed hammer faces tend to leave fewer dings even when you are in the learning stages.

I am a firm believer in using old tools. The Mousehole is not a rarity needing to be cherished in a Museum.  Use it; don't abuse it. If you must reface it read up on the Gunther Schuler method of anvil repair---pretty much the gold standard and well proven in!

[JeepinBoon]

Thank you all for your input. As far as condition, the Hay Budden rebounds 8.5"-9" with a 1" steel ball dropped from 10" and the Mouse Hole rebounds 7"-7.5" from 10". The HB has an ear piercing ring and the MH goes "thunk-thunk" on the face and horn. I hope it wasn't in a fire. I know hit the work, not the anvil. I was going to stay away from the thin/missing face and only if it delaminated at least 50% to put on a forklift fork. I've read Gunthers method as well as several others before registering here. The reason I asked about hammers was that I have chipped several hammers driving hardened pins and teeth which tells me that the hammer is so hard it would chip rather than deform. I'll grind the mushroomed edge off and hammer on it as-is. I have a home machine shop so I can mill off the top and weld hardface or fork.

[Frosty]

On 7/8/2020 at 12:00 AM, Chris Williams said:

am quite comfortable evaluating the extent of damage to something in person.

I admit when I said I couldn't evaluate that anvil I did NOT include, without being in person.  I thought that went without saying. An assumption, my bad.  Unless I'm missing something I don't believe we have any difference where this anvil is concerned. 

Boon: How do you propose to attach fork lift tine to the anvil body? 

For now Ill spare you the typical reaction most experienced smiths scream when they hear someone say I have a mill I'll . . . whatever, the face. It'd be a real shame to see a worn but usable anvil ruined by another well meaning person who doesn't know any better.  

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

If you want to reface your anvil, follow the Gunther process. It is tried and true,,, and well worth it.

Do not weld a plate to it's face. You are opening a can of worms. You cannot perimeter weld it, it must be a full weld/plug welded. Then the face must be  heat treated. Just two reasons. 

[JeepinBoon]

I don't want to reface the MH anvil. I plan to use it as-is. However, if >50% of the hardened face of it delaminates (separates from the wrought iron base) or breaks off then I will repair. I would mill the bare wrought iron face flat and braze on a forklift tine. I live on the Bayou Macon so I have an unlimited quench tank or a tractor pto water pump quench for this huge hunk if such a need arises. I can also dig a hole, fire, and bury the anvil for the temper. I am a heavy construction equipment mechanic and have some experience in build-up welding and hard facing. I'm sure gluing a tine on is easier and cheaper than welding and machining. I think I can build a hol... off topic.

Back to the hammers. Do you think that antique hammers are softer than new high quality hammers? Handmade hammers? I have a set of Mac Tools AntiVibe ball peen and cross peen hammers and many wood handle hammers. I just don't want the hammer to be harder than the anvil. What hammers would you use on a near mint Hay Budden?

[Frosty]

Okay, we're on the same page joining a face plate to an anvil body. I was planning on silver solder tinning both faces and jigging them together so the face was where I wanted it. It was the only thing I could think of to do with a grader edge that didn't include bolting it to a  mold board or making a skid shoe. 

I was going to quench with a 2" trash pump directed straight down on the face. 

I'd do something else with a fork lift tine anvil wise but if you have an anvil with a beyond recovery face what the hey.

About hammers, in short, no. There was a lot of variation between manufacturers back when some were pretty soft, some dangerously brittle and some just right. If modern hammers are brittle it's probably something that got past quality control, the liability of having a chip off a hammer face blinds someone's child would be . . . costly. Different alloys can be both hard and tough.

Depends on the maker and quality control depends on the nation all too often.

Frosty The Lucky.

[JeepinBoon]

Thank you Frosty! I think we ARE on the same page. I have a nearly unlimited supply of fluxed brass brazing rods and silver solder at work and hopefully it will NEVER come to replacing the face of the MH. I also have plenty of access to grader blades and bush hog blades as they wear out. 

You said you would do something else with a forklift tine?... Hmmm. You'd put something else on an anvil?

About the hammers, guess your right. I have only two hammers that mushroomed. I have three that are chipped at work. I'll try to find the mushroomed hammers and swap them out. I"d feel better having a softer hammer...

[anvil]

I'm just curious at the temps for brazing steel to steel and silver soldering.

Heat treating a large surface is a cool project. 

Critical temp is somewhere around 1550f, give or take and depending on the type of steel.

 

[Frosty]

Not for grader edge, Vascowear or the equivalent. I don't recall it being too terribly impressed with any of the heat treat experiments I did when I had a nearly unlimited supply and time to play. I was told it was super sensitive so I decided to see, it wasn't particularly even in extremis.

I'd use a forklift tine to make tools I needed 4140 for, like power hammer dies, bottom & top tooling, maybe a specialty anvil if a need came up. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

Just askin' because I've never heard of braising or silver soldering a plate on an old anvil to restore it. 

I did help a friend full weld/ plug weld a "high carbon"(can't remember what he used, so consider that a generic term) plate on a similar anvil. It worked, and his son has it and still uses it 3 decades later. All three of us in hindsight agreed that Robb's studey rod was a better solution.

For me there are too many unanswered questions concerning both brazing and silver soldering. I'm pretty good at brazing copper pipe and I can braze grabs on horse shoes, but that's the limit of my experience.

I am familiar with Robb's process and know it works well. 

[Frosty]

I understand your question about brazing a face on an anvil body, I've never heard of anybody doing it either. Boon is the first person I've heard even talking about it. I've wanted to give it a try I just haven't wanted to go to the time and trouble to heat that large a mass of iron to brazing temp. I was given an unmarked cast iron ASO years ago. The guy just dropped it in the yard on his way out, he also dropped off a lot of stuff from relining the coal power plants up near Fairbanks.

I can't think of one reason it won't work, even if the face plate flexes. One of the regular chores on the drill crew was brazing new carbides to the pilot bit teeth and buttons on that type teeth. The carbide buttons would pop off before the teeth would wear so if we caught them in time we could salvage the teeth at about $6 each in 1980s dollars. 

Anyway, braze and silver solder held the carbides on the teeth while we ground our way through glacial till. I'd had to wear ear plugs and muffs and my ears would still ring at the end of a day. The drill was powered by a 453 Detroit Diesel and the whole package, drill and carrier weighed 47,000lbs dry. Drilling in till often had the rear of the rig bouncing and shaking hard enough to cause welds to work harden and fail. Another of my jobs as I was the one who could spot failing welds before they broke. The paint will begin to peal and or flake over a failing weld before the weld actually parts. 

Anyway, if brazes can survive what we did to them then bonding an anvil face is nothing. I just have a good idea of how long I'd have to sit in the yard watching the fire to bring 100kg of cast iron to brazing temp, the face would just follow. 

Were I doing this for money I'd build a proper furnace, pick a brazing sheet that liquefied at or just above critical temp, I'd order 3/4", HC steel that was more impact resistant than hard. A tack weld on opposite corners would hold the face in place so it couldn't shift at liquidus.  As soon as the braze sweated out of the joint it'd go under under the quench. Residual heat from the body would temper the face.

All the details above are one reason I'm thinking my first experiment will be with 1" grader edge even though it's loaded with carbide particles making grinding a major issue. It's incredibly impact resistant, you'll rip the circle off the grader before you break the edge. 

There is a lot I do not KNOW about actually doing this but I've been thinking about it for a few decades. Who knows one of these days enough of the guys in the club might not mind setting up camp for a day or so in the gravel pit down the hill to watch the fire and help handle the anvil. 

Frosty The Lucky.

. 

[anvil]

I came close twice to being involved with folks who forge welded a W-1or 1095 X3/4 onto an old anvil like the one above. The one I was the proverbial day late. When I met them, they had done the deal about 6 months before. The second time with a different group and I was, Alas, "a dollar short" and up to my neck working in my shop solving that problem!

Both were successful forge welds and fully heat treated. Quenched in water and drawn to a dark straw.

The interesting thing was that when I got the story from both,,, both of them still "glow'd' a fine shade of cherry red in the telling! 

[ThomasPowers]

Several decades ago there were some pictures posted on the web titled "Cajun Blackened Anvil" where a group tried to forge weld on a new face but let the anvil body burn up in the ground forge they were using. 

I have a donor anvil to try forge welding on a new face.  1828 William Foster missing the heel and 90% of the remaining face. I talked with Mr Postman and he said that the WF anvils used a low grade of wrought iron in their anvils and suggested I weld the new face to a wrought iron plate and then do a wrought iron to wrought iron weld to apply it. I moved 1500 miles away from my support crew of crazy smiths before I could get the attempt made.

 

[anvil]

Lol, sometimes it's the ones that got away that make the best stories! 

[JeepinBoon]

Frosty, Thomas and anvil ~ ya'll got me curious. I'm now on the hunt for a totally knackered anvil around Delhi La. I'd like to mill one down, dig a pit and build a mud furnace down the bayou hill and see how a steel face would be brazed on and quenched old school style. 

[George N. M.]

I once saw a video where people built a big beach fire in California to heat the anvil and then used the Pacific Ocean as a quench tank.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[ThomasPowers]

Unfortunately with most of the older alloys the leidenfrost effect means that it's not the amount of water around it; it needs pressurized  flow to blast through the steam jacket that forms.  Why anvil manufacturers used flumes and water towers to do it.  (Was it the "book of lists" that had the height necessary for a plume of water to harden anvils by how much they weighed?  I've read it somewhere, pre concussions .)

As for "old school"  if someone wanted to do that a hundred+ years ago they would probably use a brazing furnace.

[JeepinBoon]

Oh you're absolutely right. I knew rolling it in the bayou and fishing it out the next day wouldn't work. I was gonna try to dig a 3' diameter pit a foot deep and build mud walls. If possible a mud chimney, pizza oven style. We just got a 200HP wood chipper at work so there's a possibility of wood chips as fuel... depends where they dump them. Borrow a gas leaf blower cause I don't need 200MPH wind blowing the fire. Quench with PTO water pump. Bury the anvil inside the oven and dig out next day. IF I find an anvil or IF mine delaminates, thats the plan.

It likely won't be this year that I even use my anvil cause it is WAY TOO HOT outside. Heat index today at 6:56PM is 108F. 

[Frosty]

My GOODNESS! It's a SEARING 73f. here at 6:20pm. this evening, darned near intolerable! Heck, I MIGHT have to turn the fan on!

Frosty The Lucky.