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Ribbon burner forge not getting hot enough


TylerKXJ

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Hello all, I am new to the forum and am hoping someone can help me out with my new forge. So after many weeks of designing and building, I have finally brought to life a forge/forge cart design that I have wanted to do for a long time. I will attach images of the finished design.

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I have a small shop so the idea was an efficient forge that I can move around to where I need it. Anyway, the main issue is that, while my forge gets plenty hot, it cant get hot enough to forge weld. Here are the details:

The main forge opening is roughly 7.5in wide, 4.5in tall and 18in long with operable doors at both ends. Surrounding this opening is 3" of ceramic fiber wool, coated in roughly 1/4"-1/2" of kastolite 30. The forge itself is not attached to the base, it simply sits on top of the base which sits inside the top of the cart. The base is 2" of ceramic fiber wool with a layer of rutland fire bricks on top. The doors are 2" thick solid kastolite. My ribbon burner is the standard 3" square tube design and is 12" long. Not sure how many holes exactly but based on the pictures maybe about 40? Before I detail the gas side of things, I want to talk about the forges performance.

First of all, I started out with a 20gal propane tank forge with a venturi burner and no door, so even in its current state this forge is leagues better than my old forge. The main 2 reasons I went ahead with this project is that I wanted a forge that was more efficient, as my old forge burned through a 20gal propane tank in 6-8 hours, and I wanted to be able to forge weld. As of now, goal A is definitely achieved. With about 3psi of gas, I have plenty of heat for every day blacksmithing. As far as how long it lasts I dont quite know yet, but I'm sure that 3psi is far less than what my old forge was running at. The issue is, however, I cant reach welding heat. So onto the gas setup: 

Feeding my ribbon burner is 2" black pipe, the horizontal portion of which has a static air mixer inside just to help mix the gas and air. Its just some sheet metal bent into a swirl. Overall the mixture seems to be ok, the back of my burner looks like it gets slightly more air pressure than the front, but its not a big deal. This 2" pipe leads to a 2"x2"x1/2" tee. Into the 1/2" port is inserted my custom made gas jet, which essentially is a 1/2" black pipe which extends into the center of the 2" pipe and has a small gas orifice, I'm unsure exactly how large but it is at the very most 1/16", but more likely about 1/32". So essentially the gas is inserted directly into the center of the air stream through this small orifice. The gas lines are all 1/4", with a needle valve and a gauge displaying the pressure regulated by the needle valve. Past the 2" tee is a 2" gate valve to control the air, and past that is the blower. Its this blower specifically, rated at 125 CFM  Remove commercial link per TOS

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So I know overall my forge and burner is on the larger side. However I feel like with doors on both ends and 125 cfm of air pressure, heat shouldnt be a problem. At normal forging temps, I can run about 3psi of gas with the air regulated pretty far down. At this psi, my blower can easily out-blow the gas. In my initial test, I turned up the gas to 6psi and the air accordingly. Then 10psi. Then who knows what psi because my gauge maxes out at 10, but I opened the needle valve as far as it would go, along with opening the air up as far as it would go. My tanks regulator goes up to 20psi, so lets just call it 20psi. Which is insane for a ribbon burner. And still, no forge welding. I let the forge sit for almost an hour at this pressure and It wouldnt come up to temp. I dont have an  IR thermometer, but based on color I would say it was sitting around 1500 degrees. Bright orange but no sparks jumping off the steel, and my quick couple attempts at bending a bar over on itself failed. I was really dissapointed after all this hard work to not get up to temp, and figured maybe I had to play around with it more. But then I saw a post where someone was forge welding with .5psi of gas and I knew something was wrong. So at this point I'm not sure where I went wrong. Maybe the forge is too big? Burner too big? Any help would be appreciated. 

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Oh and just some fun details:

The cart is made of mostly 2" tube. There are hammer/tong holders on each side which work great for keeping everything organized. And those hooks are off an old pot rack and they work great for hanging stuff. The tools dont get hot as all the heat is balsted out the front, not sideways. Also the forge is really well insulated. It started raining today while I was forging and water was sitting on top of the forge and barely evaporating off. The cart has locking casters which are really awesome. The work rest is made of smaller square tube and pulls in and out of the cart fairly freely. To make that I used a  1.25" square tube welded inside of a 2" square tube, and the work rest itself is a 1" square tube which fits perfectly inside the 1.25" tube, with some grease. You cant see this because I welded a cap onto the end and ground everything smooth, but thats all it is.

The doors lock in place by twisting the handles. You really have to crank on them since the doors are heavy, but this lets you open the door just enough for whatever you are working on and hold the rest of the heat in. The handles are sections of the transfer case output shaft off my jeep =)

So yeah overall I really like what I came up with aside from the above issue, and if anyone wants to try something similar I would be more than happy to share a parts list, my CAD models etc. 

Edited by Mod30
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Well, I'm no guru on forge building.  I've only built one................but did a whole lot of research so I'd be happy with what I'd built.

First off, I give you a double thumbs up for having built a really good looking forge.  But I think I can make a few helpful suggestions. The first thing I notice in your 2nd and 3rd pictures is you've way more gas than air.  You shouldn't even be having a noticeable flame coming out of your ribbon burner when it's up to temperature. Second thing I notice is in your last picture.  It looks as if you have regular hard firebrick on the floor of your forge.  About all firebrick is good for is soaking up heat.  NOT something you want to put inside a propane forge.  Question:  Does that mean "all" of your firebrick is hard?  If so, that's going to be a major obstacle in getting enough heat out of your forge to forge weld.

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Welcome aboard Tyler, what Chris said. I'm sure a couple of burner/forge folks who have been designing/building burners and forges for decades will be along shortly.

In the mean time I suggest reading the Read This First thread up in the blue banner. It is full of tips like editing your profile to show your location because so many answers depend upon knowing it. Plus many more, some may help in flying under the moderators radar.:)

I see from the tag on the Jeep you are in NY and there are a bunch of members that may be close to you and could visit with hands on help. We won't remember the location once leaving this post.

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1 hour ago, Chris C said:

you've way more gas than air.  You shouldn't even be having a noticeable flame coming out of your ribbon burner when it's up to temperature. Second thing I notice is in your last picture.  It looks as if you have regular hard firebrick on the floor of your forge. 

 

Thanks for a quick response! So I will say those images don't reflect actual operating air and gas mix, that was the first time i ever fired up the forge and was just snapping a few photos for friends. Maybe tomorrow ill try to get some more accurate images. Under normal operation, it does appear just as you suggested, at a certain point you can no longer see the flame. At that point I'm really just going off of sound, I adjust the air to where the forge "roars" the most, but honestly I'm not sure if thats the best mixture, or if its a reducing atmosphere which as I understand it is what you want.

As far as the bricks, you are 100% correct. I went with the bricks because I wanted to do damascus and as such was looking for something that I can easily replace after the Flux eats away at it. That being said, if that's what's keeping the forge from getting to temp I can certainly use kastolite for the base if you think that would be better. Both options still have the 2" of kaowool underneath.

14 minutes ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

 I suggest reading the Read This First thread up in the blue banner. It is full of tips like editing your profile to show your location

Done! Thanks for that, I was excited to post and forgot to do my due diligence.  Your name also reminded me that I should have used Barque Forge (the name I came up with for my little YouTube and insta channel) instead of my usual alias but too late now!

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As much as it pains me ,  (because I personally understand ownership of an extremely light pocket book) what I was trying to say is all your brick needs to be light K26 brick.  It truly insulates and doesn't store heat.  It's not inexpensive by any means, but like I said I only meant to build a forge I'd be happy with............................ and what I didn't say was I didn't want to replace it any time soon.

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1 minute ago, Chris C said:

 all your brick needs to be light K26 brick.

OK now I understand.  I think it's not a big deal to try this out. It seems I can get them in the same dimensions too. So maybe this will be my first move.  My question now though,  is do you think this will make up the difference I am looking for,  or is there another factor to consider? Again thinking about people forge welding on .5psi and I cant get there with 10. My gut is telling me there must be another issue on top of the bricks soaking up my heat.

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Tyler, I'm no guru when it comes to these forges.  I read everything I could find on the forge forum here at IFI and took notes.  I sent PM's to a lot of the people who it was obvious knew what they were talking about.  I think I pestered some of them to death and in their defense, they wanted to help.  They ALL told me to stay away from the fireplace brick.  I hope some of the more knowledgeable guys will chime in and save my bacon here, but in answer to your question, I honestly think just getting rid of your brick and exchanging it for K26 and coating that was KOL30 and then the reflective coat will bring you up to a super heat you'll be happy with.  Also, much of it has to do with how many cu in of forge space you are trying to heat.  I typically run my forge at 1.5 psi and though I don't forge weld, I have no doubt it's hot enough to weld.  It's so hot that with #5 welding goggles protecting my eyes, it's so white hot I can hardly see texture on the walls inside.  I can also turn it down to a much lower, bright red.  I know I can bring "sparklers" out of the forge when I have it cranked up.  Wish I could measure the temperature, it would be interesting.  So to directly answer your question,  I personally think the majority of your problem is your brick is just soaking up too much of the top end of heat you want for forge welding.

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Nice build.

You likely don't need to replace the bricks.  You do have insulation under them and you are only using split bricks.  There is a bit of a thermal bridge there, but likely not a huge deal.  You will have to deal with a forge that takes some time to get up to temperature due to the thermal mass, but the build looks solid to me.  How long are you letting it burn at high fire before trying to weld? 

I suspect the issue is your burner.  Though a good IR coat like Plistex or Metrocoat will help as well.

Gas pressure is not a valid way to strictly compare burners (I don't know why I have to keep saying this).  Gas flowrate is what you need to compare, and if you have a different size orifice your gas flowrate will change at the same pressure.  For the same forge configuration you will use essentially the same amount of gas to keep it at the same temperature except for the advantage that a forced air burner has in not needing the door to be open as far and lose radiant heat that way.   With a forced air burner you don't need such a small orifice at all.

Since your forge build is good the extra heat you need has to come from the burner.  The limits there are the size of gas orifice (make it larger), amount of air your blower can supply to the burner block (get rid of your swirl inducer), and the allowable volume flowrate of gas air mixture at the outlet of your burner block (you need to straddle the fence between too much opening where the velocity at the outlet allows firing inside the block or even mixing chamber, and too little where the flame "lifts off" the  face of the burner block).  In your case you have multi outlets, so you can either further increase the number or their diameter.  Of course this may lead you to burn-back or preignition as your burner will be optimized for high fire.

I recommend you try these suggestions in order, not all at once.  Any one may solve your issue.  You need to be patient and go slow.

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10 hours ago, Latticino said:

 

I recommend you try these suggestions in order, not all at once.  Any one may solve your issue.  You need to be patient and go slow.

Thank you for these suggestions. I think I will tackle widening the orifice first as that's by far the easiest modification. One question, you mention removing the swirl inducer, and if I understand correctly that is in an effort to allow more air and gas to flow? Its made of very thin sheet metal (a cut up paint can actually, lol) so I dont think its restricting any air flow, but I will remove it and see what happens, that's another simple change. A buddy is coming over to do some forging in a couple hours so I will mess with it with him and post some better photos.

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Note:  when you open the orifice you will allow more gas flow at lower pressure.  You will likely need to turn down your pressure regulator during initial warm up.  Typically on my blown forge I let it warm for around 5 minutes till I turn it up to high fire.

The swirl inducer is mostly a restriction on the air, not the gas.  It does not need to be removed if you can achieve a neutral flame at the full gas flowrate from your regulator (and without the flame lifting off the burner block face).  

 

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2 minutes ago, Latticino said:

  It does not need to be removed if you can achieve a neutral flame at the full gas flowrate from your regulator (and without the flame lifting off the burner block face).  

 

Ok, understood. Forgive me because I'm sure this has been answered 100 times, but what is the easiest tell to know when I have a proper neutral flame? Is it a balance between sound, making sure the flame is blue and not orange and is sitting right at the surface of the burner? As I understand, lifting off the face of the burner=too much air, which in turn means too much oxygen, which = oxidizing atmosphere?

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In my experience, once your forge is hot the easiest way to determine if you have a reducing or neutral flame is to look at the exhaust gases exiting the forge doors.  If you play with your air metering device (gate valve for you) and set it so the flame shooting out the door is no more than an inch or so long (in dim lighting), you are most likely just slightly reducing (a good place to be).  Once the flame disappears altogether you are likely closer to neutral and approaching oxidizing.  Note that the area just below your burner may be slightly oxidizing even though your overall forge is in reduction due to complications in the flame geometry, so don't perch your stock right in the flame unless you don't care about that.

Lifting off the burner face is air/gas mixture velocity exceeding the flame front velocity (burn rate).  Note that this changes depending on the forge interior temperature, which is why a forge burner can output more heat once the forge raises up in temperature (and why I recommended firing at low rate till the forge starts to heat up).  Once it gets up to temperature you won't be able to see whether the flame lifts off the burner face.  Listen for the forge "huffing", and avoid that.  It is the sound of the flame blowing out then reigniting due to the forge interior temperature.

Just reread your original post and saw that your forge is 18" long.  That is a pretty large volume for a forge used with only hand hammers.  It means that your thermal bridge is a little larger than I expected (keep an eye on the temperature of the hardbrick outside the forge skin and see if it is bleeding heat.  While your forge may eventually get up to the temperatures you are hoping for, you may find it is a bit of a gas pig.  I suspect a 20 LB tank won't be adequate to maintain flowrate without freeze problems.  You might need a larger tank or to manifold several smaller ones.

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Welcome aboard Tyler, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you might discover how many members live within visiting distance.

That's a beautiful job of forge building all round! There is very little I'd change and while not ideal you CAN get away with a hard split fire brick floor. My main shop forge has a 3,000f split fire brick floor. None of the ones I've built since do but I'm not rebuilding the old one and I weld in it as I wish. 

There are a couple basics of fuel air management you don't seem to understand. Picture 3 burning in a cold forge is perfect to evaluate your fuel air ratio. The flames are long, with frayed ends and there is a layer of gas burning in the forge chamber. This is a RICH ratio, there is not enough combustion air for complete combustion in the forge. it CAN'T get as hot as it should.

The above has NOTHING to do with PSI, ZERO. Put a piece of tape over your gauge it's meaningless without knowing specifically the QUANTITY of fuel, (CFM) is entering the mixing tube. CFM is NOT pressure it's the volume in (Cubic Feet per Minute). Forget about the PSI, it's MEANINGLESS!

What you are doing wrong is turning up the gas instead of turning up the air. You are adjusting your burner EXACTLY BACKWARDS of what it needs. 

Ignore the pressure gauge, crack the gas and light it, then with the air gate closed start the blower and GRADUALLY open it until you get a flame that is translucent blue and does NOT reach the floor. Look at pictures of well adjusted burner flames in "Burners 101" there are a number of well adjusted ribbon burners so you won't have to compare to single outlet burners. 

To turn the heat up, turn the gas up a LITTLE and readjust the air by turning it up gradually until the flames are burning at or SLIGHTLY above neutral. See pictures of well adjusted flames. 

There is no need for the swirl inducer. Introducing the propane where you have it has to go around two 90* corners then into the burner's plenum the turbulence is  more than enough to thoroughly mix the propane and air. I wouldn't go to the trouble of removing it unless you take it apart for some reason, then pull it out, it's not helping. 

A couple last bits of advice. Change ONE thing at a time ONLY. Then test, observe and make notes. If you start changing more than one thing the effects will be geometric and you won't know what change made what change. Get a notebook, and keep track of EVERY change and the effects. The last bit for now. If something you do is not working DON'T DO IT HARDER!! For example when your forge wasn't getting hot enough you turned up the gas, when that didn't work you turned it up higher, then higher again until you maxed your regulator.  That's like getting a speeding ticket so you drive faster hoping the police won't notice. 

I know that's a long post and you only have a small problem but like so many simple issues the reasons and answers are more complicated than you'd think.

WOW! This'll teach me to finish a post and send it before seeing what has been posted between the time I started and now!!

Before you make ANY physical changes to your forge or burner JUST ADJUST THE AIR AT THE GATE VALVE!! That is the FIRST thing to try! 

Give that poor suffocating burner some AIR! Turn the gas down and the air UP.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Alright everyone, an update after a day of forging. Frosty, I took your advice seeing where I could get just by adding more air. I just want to throw it out there that I do understand the difference between flow rate and pressure, but since I have no way of accurately measuring the flow rate I am going to continue throwing PSI out there, as nothing more than a benchmark for testing.

I let the forge come up to temperature, which looked something like this:20200707_141114.thumb.jpg.ee1fa985d2c21964656c1fcea921d64d.jpg

The forge was not at its hottest, but you can just barely see the blue flame in the center of the image. I think based on what others have said, this may have been too much air as the flame is off the surface of the burner. Dont take this image as how the burner was performing the entire time, as I tried a bunch of things, but this is where I started. With the doors mostly shut, and the gas around 5 psi (again I know, I'm just throwing it out there for reference) I let the forge get as hot as it was going to get at that adjustment. The air was adjusted to the point that the forge was making the loudest audible "roar" and from what I could see the combustion was looking good inside the forge, although barely visible at this point. Then, I slowly  began to add air. Adding air past my initial setting would always lessen the sound of the burner, as well as move the flame off the burner and more into the center of the forge. Both these things as I understand it are signs of too much air. But I would leave it like this for a little, and the forge seemed to want to catch up with the heat slightly rising until I could add more air again. So for the most part I would say this method worked okay, but it didnt get me to where I wanted to go. It seemed to me, at the end of the day the blower was always able to put out more air than the flame could keep up with, ultimately cooling off the forge, and I would end up backing off the air until the sound and look of the flame felt right. Eventually I got here:

 

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This was somewhere around 5psi after some adjusting as mentioned above, with the forge having run for a couple hours. I think the photo might appear to make the forge look hotter than it was, but even here you can see we are not at forge welding temperature. After this, I messed around with adding more gas and air, but it didnt seem to do much. Doubling the air/gas mixture for example certainly didnt amount to doubling the heat output (not saying it should, but my point is there seemed to be minimal returns). At the 5psi mark, my tank was freezing up almost every hour, (Laticino you were spot on with this one) so I ended up cycling between a couple tanks. Because of this I dont know exactly how much gas I used, but I would estimate I burned through almost a full tank today, with the forge running for maybe 4 or 5 hours. Kicking myself a little bit for making such a large forge because its way overkill for messing around with small round bar, but as I said above I want to grow and be able to tackle bigger and better projects. But for now the forge is overkill size wize. I will say, with just two pieces of work in the fire, I can forge non stop. By the time I'm done smacking one, the other is already hot and ready to go, so thats cool.

 

So anyway, the main point of this update is to just say that I havent actually changed anything yet, but this was my findings after messing around with my mixture today, and seeing what adding air would do as Frosty suggested. Which again, seemed to put out the flame more than make it grow. 

11 hours ago, Latticino said:

(keep an eye on the temperature of the hardbrick outside the forge skin and see if it is bleeding heat.  While your forge may eventually get up to the temperatures you are hoping for, you may find it is a bit of a gas pig.  

In regards to this, The bricks definitely bleed heat. The bricks aren't crazy hot, but certainly too hot to touch. I'm not sure how much It's actually effecting everything, but it might be worth it to switch over to the better bricks.

 

I was also thinking about it and I'm not sure that widening the gas orifice (suggested earlier) would make a difference, as again we are talking about flow rate ultimately, and based on my gas consumption today, I would say I am probably on the high side already in comparison to others. My thinking now is that I don't want to add more gas if I can help it. My 5psi benchmark from today is probably as high as I'd ideally like to go, consumption wise. I would hate this forge to cost me $30 a day to run (propane in the city is annoyingly expensive). I have a 50 gal tank but nowhere to fill it here. 

Frosty, if you think I should chase this dragon of seeing just how high I can push the air without raising the gas, I'm more than happy to give it another try. But like I said, I kept outrunning the burner with the air and it would take a while for the forge to catch up, and ultimately it seemed to me to not be burning as hot. Turning down the air brought back the roar. Thoughts?

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If the issue is wanting more efficiency, that is a whole different thing, I thought you wanted more heat to reach forging temps (from what you are saying to gain more heat you likely need to open more or enlarge your ports after removing the gas orifice so you can get more flowrate of the air/gas mixture - for some reason you keep leaving one side out in your comments.  Of course that will use more gas). 

To gain efficiency you need to reduce heat loss from the standard three heat transfer routes.  Your target of forge welding temperatures in a forge that size is going to burn a bunch of gas, and when you put in the large billet you will need heat energy input to get it up to temperature as well.  No free lunch here.  You have already picked a lot of the low hanging fruit.  An IR coating will help, as will reducing or eliminating the thermal bridges.  Keep your doors closed as much as possible as well, to let the forge interior heat up.  Forge welding of HC steels happens at a lower temperature than mild, but even with mild you don't need the steel to be burning to weld it.

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Hello everyone, I want to give a quick update because my issue is SOLVED. What I ultimately did was widened the gas orifice which was one of the easier options, short of changing the forge bricks, coating etc. While I was at it, I manifolded two 20lbs tanks together for the gas input. Im unsure whether I want to run one at a time and switch over when they freeze, or run both at the same time, but i have the option. So once I put everything back together, I let the forge heat up before seeing how high I could push it. Right away I busted my 10psi guage by adjusting the (now extremely sensetive) needle valve too quickly so Im flying in the dark as far as before and after comparison, but since the orifice diameter changed theres nothing to compare anyway. So anyway, the difference was immediate. The gas flow was MUCH higher. So I adjusted the air and the gas to the point where the air gate valve was 100% open, and I had tons more gas pressure to spare after that. But since the gate valve was 100%, that was my max setting, and I adjusted the flame accordingly. And let me tell you, that thing was CRANKING! Holy cow I couldn't believe it. In no time I was pulling sparklers out of the forge for the first time ever! I had a piece of 1" round sitting in the forge, and about 10 minutes later I had a pool of molten steel starting in the floor of my forge! I had no idea that would even happen.

On 7/7/2020 at 9:53 AM, Latticino said:

  While your forge may eventually get up to the temperatures you are hoping for, you may find it is a bit of a gas pig.  

Oh yes. In about a half hour of running full blast, she nearly drank an entire 20lb tank. I guess this is the price to pay for welding heat, but I am beyond pleased that I was able to get there with a couple simple changes.

 

Thank you all for your input on this! Some of this advice will likely come into play on the next iteration or as I need to make changes, but for now I'm glad we got this far and I'm calling it a day!

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1 hour ago, TylerKXJ said:

widened the gas orifice which was one of the easier options

Glad it worked for you.  If you recall, in my first post I recommended you do this first, then adjust the air/gas balance.  Note that you don't need, or necessarily want, the steel to be sparking or molten to forge weld.  A high yellow/white color with the surface looking like melted butter is your target.

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18 hours ago, TylerKXJ said:

In about a half hour of running full blast, she nearly drank an entire 20lb tank. I guess this is the price to pay for welding heat

You do have a fairly large forge, but that's still (to me) an astonishing amount of fuel burned in that period of time.   I run a much smaller forge - less than half your size - using a naturally aspirated ribbon burner (NARB), and while I have never melted steel or pulled out sparklers, I have melted a couple insulating fire bricks.  I can get at least 5 hours out of a BBQ propane tank at welding heat.  If you're ok with that level of fuel consumption then more power to you, but for me it would be cost prohibitive.

You can probably burn significantly less fuel if (as Frosty suggests) you turn the gas and air down a bit once you get the forge hot enough to forge weld.  It doesn't take as much to keep it at temperature as it does to get there.  Besides potentially making you miserably hot, damaging your steel, and dumping a lot of carbon monoxide into the air near your forge, more heat than you need is just like watching burning dollar bills fly out your exhaust ports.

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Just now, Buzzkill said:

You do have a fairly large forge, but that's still (to me) an astonishing amount of fuel burned in that period of time.

So my initial findings were definitely a bit off on this one. I was going by the small guage I have attached to each of my tanks (nothing super accurate, just a little dial with red,yellow and green to show how full the tank is, for bbqs). I realized that one of my tanks had a blockage which was almost completely preventing the flow of fuel, so 95% of the fuel was being drawn from one tank, which of course caused it to begin freezing, and made my guage drop to yellow in that amount of time. After warming up again, it went back up to green. Just going by weight, I'd say there's still more than 3/4 tank left, so better than I thought!

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BBQ sized tanks have a flow preventor in them to choke off the flow if they "think" they are in a runaway condition---hose cut or burnt through or no fitting attached when they were opened.  Some are more sensitive than others.  Opening the valves slowly can help not to trigger them as can using a good regulator.  Some of these tanks will work fine for a forge if "babied" some will lock down even when doing common forging and should be traded out.  Once you get a set of tanks that work well; don't trade them in; get them refilled!

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I discovered you CAN get 20lb. tanks at the propane distributor's outlet without the flow restricting safety valve if you buy one used for Weed Burners, etc. You aren't likely to find one in a big box store for liability reasons.

Flow restrictors are less common in 40lb and up tank.

Frosty The Lucky.

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