Jump to content
I Forge Iron

Mystery stuff is always free and easy


Recommended Posts

I recently bid to a gent from out of state and as we were going over the work we got to comparing notes about how things are done in Chicago versus Denver. 

As we chatted about the project, he was making notes to present to the client.  He kept saying that he wanted to "over explain" things to avoid misunderstandings with his client.  He kept struggling to find ways to "dumb it down" without minimizing the impact a decision could have on the client's satisfaction.

Eventually I joked that most client's default condition is to assume that mystery stuff is always free and easy.  The average client doesn't place much value in the things they don't understand.  So it's generally good practice as a bidder to consider your proposal from your clients point of view.  Ask yourself what "mystery stuff" is expensive and difficult.  Those are the things you should take pains to explain.  I recommend pricing breakouts based on functional elements rather than rattling off labor, material, overhead, profit, tax, etc.  If they didn't know about the mystery stuff, they're not going to know what the correct amount of labor to install it should be.  That being said, I would encourage bidders to be cautious about providing too many breakouts.  Prices are seldom remembered with appropriate context.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

MAN I seemed to have missed May 19 for some reason!

When I was doing fabrication side jobs this was crazy common. The cost of changes is always a mystery. I finally stopped explaining much unless asked specifically. I presented a dimensioned drawing to compare and explain with the graph paper sketches we usually started with and an itemized work order. 

It didn't take me long to add, changes after approval are billed at time + materials. 

It never failed I'd have materials bought, cut and begin assembly and the commissioner would drop by and say how about moving this or adding that or . . . ARGHHH! :angry: No clue what it does to a plan to change in the middle and I planned builds, from how I loaded the trailer at the steel yard to delivery or installation. I normally cut all the stock at once in reverse order of use so it was all laid out in order. 

In the day I charged $79/hr and didn't charge materials other than full sticks.  Some guys would stop by to see how it was coming and I'd take a few minutes, no problem. Suggest a change and I'd ask, "you really want that?" if yes, they were on the clock 1 hr. minimum even if they decided not. 1/2 deposit tended to guarantee they'd pay off and pick up the project. I only had to sell two elsewhere before word got out. 

A 50% deposit, cash on delivery, is a wonderful way to discourage folk who agree to a deal and want to renegotiate after it's done. took me too long to learn that one. They were also the ones where the time and materials upon changes worked a treat. 

Seems to be whatever another person's education and trade involves is a mystery. Eh?

I'm so glad I stopped making things for people except a rare brief blacksmith project for pay. Things like coat hooks and bottle openers at demos sort of commissions don't irritate me one bit. Tell me I'm not a real blacksmith if I don't charge 19th century prices? Go find a real blacksmith. NO, it's no longer for sale. Do I have to tell you to leave me alone? 

I'm a much more effective curmudgeon in person, so much nuance is lost on a monitor.

 Frosty The Lucky.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frosty,  your comments remind me of a number of imaginary "rights" that clients believe they have.  I've had clients who imagined they had a "right" to demand that change order work be undertaken before the paperwork was completed.  I've encountered quite a few who imagined they had a "right" to demand that I furnish all requisite information for them to purchase the material themselves, AFTER they had me price furnish and install.  Then there's the time-wasters who never stop asking questions about the pricing.  Nothing can ever be detailed enough to satisfy them.  There's this perverse working relationship where they demand more detail in hopes that they can trust what they're looking at, but they don't trust you to tell them the truth.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, people can imagine all sorts of reasons to modify contracts in their favor after the fact. I had way too much trouble with SCA fighters who wanted me to trust them to pay for the armor. 50% deposit, balance due on delivery, changes revert to time and materials. Pretty much ended making armor for SCA fighters. 

No, I don't use your materials. Well, maybe for straight shop rate, no estimate or bid including salvaged materials. I don't care if you just bought it at the steel yard. 

Oh yeah, the folk who hope if they get enough answers they won't have to make a decision. I've worked for a couple of those and have turned away commissions. I'll explain the drawings and show you how they evolved from the concept sketches and measurements but I don't do the nonstop question and answer session. Did too many from folks I couldn't tell to take a hike. 

We encounter similar if not the same: attitudes, ignorance and greed if from different directions. It's why reading your first post stirred me up so much. 

You know, it's so much easier to deal with yahoos if you don't need the work. Sure I'd like the project but I don't NEED the project. 

 Frosty The Lucky.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a large part of the problem is that contractors/bidders are often dealing with people who are outside their area of expertise.  They may know their own business, e.g. widget manufacturing and sales, but have no experience or knowledge about building an addition to their widget factory.  They have heard horror stories about being ripped off by shady contractors and if they have been at all sharp in their own business practices they will expect someone to try to put something over on them.  They may have hired an architect to design the addition and advise them but they may suspect that the architect and the bidders are in cahoots because the architect has dealt with these bidders before and will again in the future.  So, the suspicion is that the architect may shade their advice to get along with the contractors on later jobs.

So, the owner is suspicious of everyone and tries to dig out as much information as possible so that they can understand how the contractor arrived at a figure.  They are out of their area of competence and are fearful of being taken advantage of.  

This is somewhat similar to the practice of law where, as an attorney, you have to educate the judge or jury about the facts of the case.  That is why an expert witness who can explain something complex to lay folk is solid gold and worth every cent of his or her fee.  I, unfortunately, have had experts who really knew their stuff but could not explain it in language a judge or jury could understand or who fell apart under cross examination because they were used to being an expert and didn't know how to deal with someone challenging them.

I think much of the frustration is because a person who is competent in an area has to deal with someone who is not and is suspicious and uncomfortable because they know they are in an inferior position of knowledge.  The trick is to try to educate them without them realizing that you are doing it.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ayup, I agree George a lot of the hassles we've been talking about are because people try to operate outside their area of competence and are unwilling to acknowledge it or are unable to recognize it. Dunning Kruger effects everyone everywhere.  

 Frosty The Lucky.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moving on to the Peter Principle are we George? Shhhh, we'll get in trouble! :o

How about that live coverage of the Crew Dragon docking with the ISS? Took them better than 2 hours to open the hatches after they had a hard dock. I had no idea it was THAT complicated a process but you can't forget anything in space. It's an unforgiving . . . place.

 Frosty The Lucky.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't forge and sell as much stuff as youse guys (although I've finally been picking it up again), but I've done all kinds of nutty work or made stuff for people.

Deposits are a must, but over the years, I've also gotten more into having it in writing.  Changes are also in writing.  I've found that the ones that avoid written contracts are also the ones most likely to be the troublemakers when it comes to changes or payment.  Of course, you tell them that it's for their protection, as it also binds you to your word.  If it goes to court there is also no (less anyways) argument over terms, or whether the oral contract is valid under the Statute of Frauds rule because the value of the work is too high.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having it in writing is your best bet for getting the project and payment right. Or to quote Judge Milian from "People's Court," "Say it forget it. Write it regret it." Small claims court has a lower standard of proof than higher courts.

It's true regardless, without witnesses a verbal contract is to easily forgotten by the person in breach.  where a simple written statement, even a text message can provide a written contract or acknowledgement of one. Strong evidence may not live up to "proof" but it's something.

Makes me glad I haven't made anything worth needing a written anything in a long time. A $20-40 item that isn't payed off and taken can be sold or isn't too painful to collect dust if I can's use it or gift.

At what price or conditions do you feel you need a contract? 

Frosty The Lucky.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Statute of Frauds in most every state says anything over $500 must be in writing or it's invalid, although if they're dumb enough to admit it in court, an oral contract still stands. There must be an offer, agreement, acceptance, and consideration discussed, but full details don't have to be written.  And an advertisement isn't an offer, but an invitation to do business, although consumer protection laws may apply.  All of which I'm definitely just commenting on, not advising about.  Promissory estoppel is kind of a principle that if there's a serious reliance on the information provided in an oral contract or agreement it might apply, but it's a lot harder to meet the standard in court.

 

For me personally?  I don't really care for most things under $100, unless it's a pain to make or work that I can't resell to someone else if they default.  I don't require a deposit most of the time for that amount, but I will for anything over, and anytime up-front money changes hands, I like to have it in writing, even if it's just a receipt/agreement with the outline of the details.  Even if I didn't want to take it to court, sometimes just having it in writing brings them around.  Little stuff, meh.  I kept having people flake on bottle openers and wood carving tools, but they were easy to resale.

 

The thing that really convinced me about written agreements was the time I loaded about 120 chickens onto a guys truck, and then he tried to renegotiate the price to $4 or $5 bucks less a bird after  it was loaded because he figured I wouldn't unload it again.  He cussed me when I wouldn't take the decreased price, he cussed me when I started unloading the truck, and when he really cussed me again when he started to throw the money down and drive off and I told him I'd call the cops on him for theft if he left with my birds on the truck.  He finally paid what I wanted, plus an extra $30 for making me load the truck twice in the rain, then left a strip of rubber in the driveway and posted a bunch of fake complaints for the next eight months about us on FaceBook and Craigslist saying our chickens were diseased and mistreated, going so far as to rip off photos from the PETA website and claim that it was our birds.  After that?  No writing, no sale.  My birdies were clean and well kept.

 

I also do it on the buying end.  My ex put a deposit down on a horse one time, and then had a call two days later from the lady saying that God had spoke to her in a dream and told her to keep the horse.  God apparently didn't have any problem with her selling it a week later for $500 more though to another buyer.   I also insist on writing for any business done with family.  Although when you try to hold them to it, you never hear the end of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, the courts will enforce an oral contract if all the requirements are there but there is an old legal expression that an oral contract isn't worth the paper it is written on.  The difficulty is that it usually comes down to he/she/it said/he/she/it said.  Courts are reluctant to make a decision just on witness credibility. So, as Nobody Special says, get it in writing if it is worth enough for that hassle.  A $10 bottle opener is not, a $1000 gate is.

Also, the sale of goods is usually covered by the Uniform Commercial Code which would apply rather than the Common Law Statute of Frauds.  The Model UCC has increased the amount for which a written contract is required from the old $500 to $5000 but only a few states have adopted that revision. 

When in doubt get it in writing.   Even if you never have to go to court having a written agreement strongly discourages sharp operators from trying something shady.   The same is true for waivers of liability.  They may not be valid or enforceable but they discourage litigation. 

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except that the UCC is a recommendation for a uniform code of law that isn't law itself until adopted by individual states.  The UCC includes the Statute of Frauds, under § 2A-201 although Statute of Frauds did originate under common law, surprisingly recently.  Prior to its development, it was caveat emptor out there except for food adulteration.  Many states adopted parts of it word for word, but there are variations in many places from the UCC.  Auction law for one is especially fun.

 

In Wyoming, Statute of Frauds is covered by Wyom Stat §34.1-2.A-201, and veers off a bit from the federal UCC, such as changing the $500 limit to $1000.  Where I'm at in Washington state, it quotes it verbatim, under RCW 62A.2-201.  Like I said, in court, it's not the witnesses, it's getting the guy ya had the agreement with to admit it existed.  I'm going through a lawsuit right now that hinges on this more or less exactly, (they said we could break the lease because they wanted to sell the place, then they changed their minds after we moved out) and they admitted it.  Oopsie.  Lucky me, I paid attention during business law.  Yay...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm liking the shape this thread is taking. "Promissory Estoppel"  What the HECK is estoppel? Frosty asks himself and Looks it up he does. The phrase makes perfect sense and from context estoppel means to stop or a halt to an action. Puts me in mind of "Detrimental Reliance." 

I believe Nobody and I are about in line on the $ value of work to require a contract. <$100 handshake's Okey dokey, >$100. Gets a signed work order.  Offer, agreement, consideration and stipulations. Eg, changes are time and materials, 1 hr. minimum.

Did they actually admit it or did they let it slip? Like Judge Judy is fond of saying, "You don't have to have a good memory if you tell the truth."

Yeah, I watch too much court TV, please feel free to through stinky cyber socks at me or ignore me. I loved being in debates and the rules involved.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They admitted it, and figured it wouldn't matter, and that they were free to change their minds.  Yah, been helping my wife out getting a paralegal degree, which basically means I've been auditing the classes and doing all the homework alongside with her.  Good for the marriage, but add one more skill that I have zero accreditation for...

We're also filing a motion about insufficiency of process, (didn't serve us remotely right, no certification of delivery, complaint was wrong, address was wrong, no notice of retaining lawyers, defendants were wrong, and how do you get the plaintiffs incorrect?) but the whole thing was delayed til next month due to COVID.  Whee....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Nobody,

Sufficiency of Process is one of those things that may or may not be an effective argument depending on the judge.  With Judge A who is very strict and wants the Rules of Civil Procedure exactly followed it may get the case dismissed.  With Judge B who is more laid back he or she may ask whether you were prejudiced in any way or put at a disadvantage by the other party not crossing every T and not dotting every I.  If not, he or she will probably let things slide.  This is particularly true if both parties are pro se (no lawyer).  Attorneys are held to a higher standard and are more likely to get spanked if they do not follow the rules.  Even though citizens are supposed to follow the same rules judges are more likely to cut them some or a lot of slack. 

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could argue that it delayed service, although it's likely to be outweighed by COVID delays, but I would also say that failure to state the charge is fairly prejudicial.  How do you prepare for a trial or discovery if they've failed to say what they're taking you to court for?  At any rate, I don't lose anything by making the motion, and I might gain something.  If it gets tossed here, their only recourse is to go to the superior court, and up here they often refuse the case out of hand if the lower court kicked it back.

Also, the plaintiff is being a...umm...fourth point of contact, and I want to irritate them and point out that they don't have their act together before we discuss that two-thirds of their move out charges are illegal under state code.  The legal ones are maybe a third of the deposit, and I offered repeatedly to let them keep the whole thing.  Hopefully they get tired of it before mandatory arbitration.  I hate arbitration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...