Why won’t my welds stick?

[Hearthstone]

+1 on working with an experienced smith.  I always feared the weld.  Avoided it as much as possible. Spent two days welding (coal forge) everything with a mentor.  Now I no longer fear the weld even though they don't all stick.  Start simple (such as chain links, 3/8 lap weld...) then lots of time at the forge and anvil.  Twenty or thirty ...forty.... welds later and you'll have more successes than failures (spokeshave plane iron, my most recent failure).

This whole blacksmithing thing is not as easy as many people think. Sure you can hit hot metal with a hammer, but that does not always mean it turns out to be a good piece. I just cleaned out a corner of my barn where I had my first forge and unearthed several of my first efforts--almost embarrassing compared to what I can turn out now.

That said, there are a lot of basic things that go into successful forging--Frosty just touched the tip of the iceberg. The more you learn, the more you will figure out.  For my welding it was fire control (coal forge), temperatures, and speed that I needed to work on.  Did I mention those fifty or sixty welds?

[Hearthstone]

On 8/28/2020 at 2:14 PM, Asmithy said:

whats the easiest way to get efficient results. The cheapest yet most effective would be appreciated.

Sorry Asmithy, I got so hung up on pontificating about experience and such I never actually answered your question (or at least what I think your question is) from my point of view.  So after you consider all of the above and have read the welding threads:

Get hold of your inexpensive affordable, preferably mild steel. With your location some people can help you find sources. I would suggest 3/8, though 1/4 would work but is too easy to burn.  Heat the end, fold over onto itself then weld together.  You can even draw that back into a bar if it's a good weld. When you succeed at that more times than you fail, cut a 1" piece from the end of your bar and weld that onto the top of your bar--no folding to keep it together.  Again, when you succeed more often than not move on.  So far you have used material which should be on the inexpensive side and you might be able to reuse the material for another project.

Cut your 3/8 into 4" to 5" pieces, draw out to just over 1/4" round, kerf the ends and bend into a circle.  Weld together, form to an oval.  Do with another piece threaded THROUGH your first.  Now you have two chain links.  Make another pair.  Link the two pairs as a five link piece. Repeat.

So, I can get A36 for just over $4 for 4'. 20 Mule Team borax is $5 at your nearest Big Box store.
For cheap, you get to practice lots of simple welds, reuse the stock and hopefully have some short lengths of rough chain and rings to use for projects.
This type of simple practice is a great way to increase your welding skills (efficiency) and I think it is cheaper than getting frustrated with larger and more complex welding projects with odd or unknown steel.  Once you figure out how to efficiently weld, moving onto more complex welds and steels will be a bit easier.

[ThomasPowers]

4' for US$4 sounds like you are buying steel at a Big Box Store.  I generally find that I can buy a 20' long stick at a steel supply place for about the same as 4' at the big box store.  (As I have some experience with metals I get a lot from my local scrapyard where 4' of 3/8" sq stock would be about 40 UScents---however starting out it's better to buy known good steel at a steel dealer!)

[Hearthstone]

I'm in the Cleveland area and used to get my stock from Garfield Hts but that place started having problems with orders. Now I go online from a Toledo supplier. I've been learning blacksmithing for 11 years and get my scrap steel from auction similar to what you get pricewise, but for "known" steel I order it and that has been my most convenient option. It's just a hobby mainly so I don't use hundreds of pounds at a time and Cleveland scrap yards are not the most ..... welcoming.  Box stores are even pricier and I am less sure of the quality they carry. Price goes down, of course, with more weight but I just wanted to pull an example to use.

ThomasPowers and others, I am curious how most people acquire 'known' steel. I am stuck in the greater Cleveland area and am using what I found. With all our steel plants here, I could not find a way to get steel from them as most are making billets and rolls.
Perhaps I need to start another thread for this.

[Frosty]

I buy from the steel supplier, there are two within about 25 min. drive so competition keeps prices close to Anchorage even with the local sales tax. For HC we have a Steel Supermarket in Anchorage and they have a decent selection of blade steels. I haven't checked them for H and S series steels though. 

I have enough coil spring to last me till my estate sale including one from a rock crusher that's 450 lbs. of hammers, bottom tools, etc. A garage door spring I've only uncoiled part way and it's mate out in the yard.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Frazer]

Hearthstone, I'm not from that area, but my grandma lives in Cleveland. 

Anyway, I see a Metal Supermarkets warehouse is in south Cleveland. Also, on Cumberland Steels website they have a full catalog of the alloy and tool steels they have available. It looks like there are a few places near you that might have something you're looking for. Might be cheaper than buying online (even if it's semi-local). Especially if you're paying for shipping.

[JHCC]

9 hours ago, Hearthstone said:

I am curious how most people acquire 'known' steel. I am stuck in the greater Cleveland area and am using what I found.

Where are you in the Cleveland area? Aztec Steel in Elyria is my go-to source for bar stock, and they have an area outside the office with an ever-varying supply of drops.

(I'm in Oberlin and would normally invite you to come over for a forging session. Maybe post-pandemic?)

 

[ThomasPowers]

When I lived in Ohio there was a scrapyard in Dayton with a contract to a large manufacturer for their drops *and* they had a copy of that manufacturer's color code!  They had a dedicated area for that steel.  Also knowing what certain items are made from, generally from friends who worked in the manufacturing biz for those items.  Like a Friend who worked for an axle maker, a friend who worked for a bearing maker, etc.  Finally published specs for certain items, like the RR Spike specs.

Getting a set of known steel samples can alloy you to comparison spark test unknown steels and get a better idea of what you are using.  Of course it's a scrapyard so there is quite likely some weird stuff hiding in it so *ALWAYS* *TEST*!

(Different Manufacturers/Dealers use different color codes so you have to be sure of where a piece came from and what their system was.)  Note both bearing races and axles change what alloy they are based on size!

[Hearthstone]

Thanks All. 
JHCC: I'll head over to Aztec and check them out. I didn't realize Aztec had drops and cutoffs; I'll head over there next week!  I live in N Ridgeville, but my shop is in Nova--best of both worlds, live in suburbs relax in the country.

Post Pandemic hammer time sounds fine to me.  Been doing this a while, but only get a little time at the forge; still apprenticing.

[ThomasPowers]

I'd prefer to be further out in the country; but my wife has a silly mandate that we have to live on a paved road! (When I bought the house out here it was on a paved road and then they tore it up and left it unpaved for months. I was really sweating it; but they finally resurfaced it just before she came out with the kids, having waited till their school year was over in Ohio.)