Chris C Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 When I bought my high pressure regulator to use on my forge, I was trying to save money and didn't purchase a pressure gauge. I think I want one. I bought my regulator from Tejas and they offer several. But I don't know which one to purchase. Any recommendations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 One rated for Propane that fits the gauge port in your regulator. Don't buy a cheap gauge, the tolerances aren't real tight on good ones as it is. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share Posted March 28, 2020 I was more concerned about the pressure range, Frosty................but I answered my own question. I looked up my regulator purchase invoice and it said Hi-Pressure 0-30psi. On the Tejas website they say to order the next size over your regulator...............so I just ordered a 60psi from Tejas. Two more weeks and I'll be released from my weight lifting restriction, so if the Mayor has removed her "stay at home" order, I'll be able to load up my propane tanks and take'em to town and get'em filled. Yipee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 I would not follow that advice; it is meant to protect the gauge, encase you run the regulator wide open; who but a mad scientist type (guilty) would do that? On the other hand, the higher the PSI the gauge is intended for the less precise its measurement will be in the lower ranges. It is unlikely you will ever push pass twenty PSI, but is likely that you'll want accuracy at four PSI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 Let me take a wild guess here . . . The 0-60 gauge wasn't MORE expensive was it? Can I interest you in a nice clean used car? It was only driven by a little old lady alternate Wednesdays to the Piggly Wiggly in Pasadena for groceries and stored in the air conditioned garage the rest of the time. You're running a gun burner you'll probably never run 10psi. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share Posted March 28, 2020 All of the gauges were the same price, Frosty. I couldn't put in a change order on the gauge, so it'll be here Monday. What's a "gun" burner? Do you mean my forced air ribbon burner? Am I supposed to control the gas with the black knob on the regulator or the needle valve in the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 A gun burner is a more professional term for a blown burner. Guys at a HVAC supply take you more seriously if you use the right terminology. Of course you run the risk of them thinking you know what you're doing and not telling you that won't work. Been there done that. <sigh> You can use either or both. The needle valve is more precise than the regulator control. The needle has NO effect on line pressure, only the flow. Controlling the fuel to the burner is about how much is flowing in. Directly controlling the flow is more precise. Controlling flow by delivery pressure is a process of approximation with more variables to contend with. The imprecision of using the regulator as a flow control is another reason not to pay much attention to a gauge, the gauge is just another approximation in the circuit. The approximation you CAN trust is your eyes and ears. You can tune by eye closely enough as to make no difference. If a process requires a specific temperature use a temperature gauge. Measure the results not the process. Make sense? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 Indeed it does, Frosty...............thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 You're welcome Chris, it's my pleasure. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Piggly Wiggly never had a location in Pasadena, although there were two in Glendale. They were closed after Piggly Wiggly Western States was acquired by Safeway in the early Thirties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 So John, was ancient Greek your first language? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 Sounds like it, Thomas. Of course, this "sheltering in place" is driving some to drink. Guess that's a possibility in John's case. My daughter never drinks, but after 4 weeks with her entire family inside the house, I got a text the other day where she admitted she was mixing Kool-Aid with Vodka and "rather enjoying it". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 I've wondered if some of the kinfolk have ordered half a ton of ground corn and several hundred pounds of sugar as "essentials". I'm sure they are antisocial distancing out in the holler too! At some point I will, like W.C.Fields, be "forced to live for days on nothing but food and water". On the other hand I did fill my 100# propane tank before everything was shut down and so can spend my weekends in the forge for a while. My standard come back when folks see me smithing and tell me "That's Cool!" is "If it's cool then you are doing it WRONG!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 On 3/28/2020 at 9:01 PM, Frosty said: You can use either or both. The needle valve is more precise than the regulator control. The needle has NO effect on line pressure, only the flow. Controlling the fuel to the burner is about how much is flowing in. Directly controlling the flow is more precise. Controlling flow by delivery pressure is a process of approximation with more variables to contend with. Frosty, I'm sorry, but I don't agree with these statements. The needle valve may have little effect on line pressure upstream of the needle valve in a propane gas train with a regulator (mostly because a good quality regulator should be compensating for any effect on the upstream system from the needle valve), but it certainly has an effect on line pressure downstream of the valve. Without a regulator the upstream pressure on a needle valve is limited only by the vaporization of the propane in the tank (which may not be stable depending on tank temperature. However that is immaterial. The important thing is that the needle valve may not change the line pressure upstream of the valve in a system with a good regulator, but it certainly changes it downstream of the valve (or the flowrate will not change, since they are related by Bernoulli's equation). In fact the needle valve is typically less precise for flow metering as it is decidedly non-linear in operation (initially a small change in valve postion from full open has little effect, but the needle valve gains valve authority as it approaches being further closed), while a regulator is much more linear (I'm not going to go into detail on the diaphragm/spring dynamics of a regulator as I"m probably already boring folks). My concern is that statements like you have made will lead to folks piping forges without proper regulators, as they will feel that needle valves do a better job... Here is something I previously posted on another smithing site that better explains my thoughts: I've never needed a needle valve to regulate the flow in my builds. A good regulator can very precisely adjust the pressure within 1/2 psi. For a given fixed geometry gas train piping system the pressure of the gas at the source directly dictates the flowrate (unless some kind of compressor is added, reference the extended Bernoulli's equation). A good needle valve changes the piping system dynamics by adding a local restriction to the flow and allowing you to reduce the flowrate without adjusting the main system pressure at the regulator (if you initially set the regulator to run very rich at full air flowrate you can use the needle valve for more modulation, both up and down, but you need to plan that in advance). The same thing can be accomplished by adjusting the regulator, but you can also increase the flowrate using the regulator. It is my opinion that one point of control for the gas is better than two, but each to his own. A needle valve would certainly make it easier if your propane tank and regulator were located outside your shop. It will allow gas flow adjustment while viewing the results in the forge. I believe that the use of needle valves in DIY burners dates back to the time when folks on shoestring budgets did not wish to purchase quality propane regulators. Needle valves used to be cheaper and more common. The popular RISD glass furnace/ceramic kiln burners from the late 60's (I think) are a good example of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 You're right of course Latticino, I didn't say that, I didn't think I needed to. Nor did I think it necessary to give another rundown of bernoulli's principles regarding fluid delivery through a given diameter. PSI X Dia. Chris asked an either or question I responded as such. I've never put a needle valve on a forge but I can tune by eye and ear almost without thinking about it. I can get my nearly worn out 35 year old 0-20 psi regulator close enough for anything I use it with but talk about approximation. I use my experience and try not to assume folks out there know something just because I do. There is a factor you are maybe not taking into account here. You and I know about and expect the delay between turning the diaphragm screw (the knob on the regulator you're referring to Chris) and the change in line pressure. New folks like Chris aren't used to it and expect an immediate or at least quick change in psi. Did you remember to tell them it takes longer for the line pressure to decrease than increase? If you've been paying attention you know Chris isn't the most patient person on the forum so giving him a control with near instant results seemed reasonable. No? (I hope you brought enough popcorn for EVERYBODY Chris!) What is the problem with using a needle valve under unregulated propane tank pressure? That is exactly what they're designed for isn't it? I used to work with a guy with an utter lack of sense where dangerous tools was concerned and he made an inhuman number of stupidly dangerous mistakes just with the weed burner and propane tank, including dragging both a good 100' behind the work truck. Burning. If there is an inherent danger I'm not aware of I am ALL EARS. Lots of guys getting into the craft are on shoe string budgets now. Unless I see evidence to the contrary I'll continue to recommend a needle valve is a good fuel control. Gang, Latticino and I aren't arguing so don't get your hopes up. We're friends with different opinions based on experience. I sincerely appreciate well spoken and factually backed differences of opinion. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Frosty said: Chris isn't the most patient person on the forum Well THAT hurt, Frosty. Just because it's the truth doesn't mean you have to throw it in my face. Patience is just a virtue of which I have very little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 That raises the obvious question: who IS the most patient person on the forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 8 minutes ago, Frosty said: Chris asked an either or question I responded as such. Frosty, Wasn't specifically Chris I was worried about, but other readers of the forum. You are absolutely correct regarding his question and attitude . I was concerned about other folks reading your comment and misinterpreting it to mean that use of only a needle valve would be a superior control for their system. I don't advocate it because it is an inferior metering system, in my opinion (for example, where upstream pressure variations, say from tank cooling down, will influence flowrate without changing needle valve setting). There is also the potential for wire drawing for a needle valve if liquid condenses in the propane line as well as degrading of valve seal from regular use. Quality being equal, regulators are superior, and safer in my opinion. I either don't have a significant delay in operation of my (also 30 year old) propane regulators, or just am so used to it that I don't notice same. Actually these days I don't use the propane all that much anyway, as I am plumbed with Natural Gas at home. Only use propane in our group forge periodically, and those budget regulators work extremely poorly. At the group forge we use both regulators and needle valves because we run 100 gal tanks off a single regulator, then split the output to multiple forges using needle valves (which is allows the needle valve to balance the output). I also adjust by sound and forge interior color. As you all should know I have the greatest respect for Frosty and agree with the vast majority of his posts. This is all down to an issue of terminology tied to the fact that I read the latest updated post in the feed, and don't always go back to check the post referenced. Had I done so I would have understood his post better and not commented in such excruciating detail. Mi culpa. I'd have to say Glen is the most patient person on the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 John, Glenn is or else this would have been turned into a forum about African Violets or Crochet *years* ago... Reading Claude E Shannon's biography has certainly given me an appreciation for redundancy and more of a handle on signal to noise ratios on a forum like this. I wish he had still been at Bell Labs when I was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 Oh great, so now I'm getting a reputation for having an "attitude". Well I never!!!!! You fellers sure know how to welcome a guy up to the fire for a cup of coffee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Better not stand too close to the fire what with the coffee some of these folks pass around! (Not to mention the beans, Brussels sprouts,...) I'm avoiding fires myself as I had a lovely lunch yesterday of cheese, posole, tamales and green chile dip all mixed up in a bowl as we were cleaning out the leftovers using a recipe Mr Creosote recommended---though we didn't use a bucket. Now if you want to talk about *altitude*, highest I've been on my own two feet is 16400 in the Andes in Chile. Which was a sufficiency for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 I don't think that's the kind of "attitude" I'm accused of having, Thomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Chris: My quick brother, what patience you have is a precious commodity in it's scarcity. I got notice of your reply less than 3 minutes after I sent it. Read, cogitate, compose and reply in under 3 minutes. Next time I'll have to write several pages so I have time to go to the bathroom. Did you bring the popcorn? It could've been read that way, I should've been more clear. Both needle and regulators have their time and place, pluses and minuses like everything. I didn't notice the delay until I started watching for what was causing new guys to have so much trouble tuning a burner. They were turning the reg knob back and forth and just couldn't catch up. Watching the just as old and somewhat rough gauge I noticed the lag. Slowing the students down to a count of five between adjustments resolved the issue without telling them why. They had enough to think about with fire, iron and planning the next step without sparing attention to something that didn't matter at that point. I still don't notice the lag unless I watch for it specifically. I can't say I've noticed ambient temperature having much effect on burner performance but next cold day I'll hook up the hose with the needle valve and check. I don't do anything that needs the kind of temperature control glass requires. I harden by eye or magnet and temper by color or shop toaster oven. I got a decent quality oven thermometer for the shop toaster oven though. BOY for a GE the thermostat doesn't hold very close to dial setting! There goes my faith in church rummage sales! Little differences like this broaden everybody's definitions and perspectives. I'd write win 50,000 times but that'd be a BIT much. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 Well, Frosty, as I understand the purpose of the regulator and needle valve: Set the regulator at the maximum pressure you expect to need. (as you've said in the past, no-one needs even 30 pounds with these forges) Then adjust needle valve from 0 to whatever pressure meets your needs. Yes? Oh, and I've ALWAYS got popcorn. It's always first on the shopping list. I just don't eat it at the same time as drinking apple cider. Massive amounts of undesirable/unwanted flatulence abound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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