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So I’m new to the smithing world been doing lots of research and what not way before I started to try forging. Now I have made a pretty good forge hits a grate gorging temp can bring it down to a good heat treat temp. But I just can’t seem to hit that welding temp I need to try and make damascus for some reason. Forge is 18” long and 5” x 5”  wide tall in the forge. Using a forced air system I have refined a few time it is all 1 1/2 pipe with 2 to 1 1/2 to 2” reducer fittings with a star pattern in them with 7/32 in the center 5/32 on the first loop and then 1/8 on the outside loop all holes are spaced 1/2 apart from center and I drilled them at a 10* angle on the first and second loops center is flat drilled. Using 2 20lds propane tanks for each burner with a 0-30 psi adjustable fuel pressure. Have to gate valves for the 2 tubes from the forge to the first 90 is 6” then 12” to the next 90 where I have my propane feeds at facing into the wind and then 12” to the blowers. Each blower is around 200-250 cfm. 
 

 If anyone has something set up like this that can hit a welding temp would love to hear from you. Like I stated before I can make a great forging and heat treat temp just can’t seem to hit a welding temp to save my life for some reason

any help I can get would be much appreciated thank you

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You never know how many members are near you to offer hands on advice. Hence the suggestion to edit your profile to show it in the thread JHCC linked. It is full of tips to help you get the best out of the forum like how to do the best search, posting in the correct section and how to keep the moderators happy.:)

Sound like the burners are good, what is the forge made from?

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I was going to ask the same thing. Is it solid hard refractory, or does it have a layer of ceramic wool around the outside? A large mass of hard refractory won't insulate well, and you'll be burning a lot of fuel to get it hot and keep it hot.

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I have 1” kwool then 2” of refractory cement. I use kwool for the back till it’s nice n hot then I remove it and get everything tuned for forging. I left the kwool in on the back when I was trying to get it hot enough to weld tho

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Personally I would have flipped those numbers and used 2" of kaowool with a thinner refractory cement layer.  I knew a smith with a heavy refractory forge that he could get to welding temps but only after and hour of running it to heat up the heavy refractory.

Also why so long a forge?

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33 minutes ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

 what is the forge made from?

Have high temp refractory and kwool liner of 1” 

13 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Also why so long a forge?

I still have all kind of kwool and refractory also plenty of metal I could make another and try that and see. If you all thing more kwool less refractory May bring it up to the welding temp I need I’m game. All kind of stuff to make another forge around still  

Edited by Mod30
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I'm thinking like Thomas that the hard refractory is soaking up a lot of heat. How long have you let it run trying to obtain welding heat?

BTW: When quoting it is best to trim the quote to only show relative info to the reply. We have members world wide and a lot have to rely on dial up internet or pay for data and large quotes (especially with pictures) are data hogs. The best way to trim is to highlight the portion you want to quote and a radio button appears that says quote this. There is no need to quote the post just prior to your reply either.

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I have made a few longer k-bar like knives for friend. I’m in the military and everyone wants k-bars so that’s why I made it 18” so I could make a 10” blade with a 5” hidden tang for my comrades. Only reason it’s that long

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Welcome aboard Gillie, glad to have you. Thanks for serving.

You have a few issues working against you here. First as already mentioned WAY too much hard refractory and not enough ceramic blanket refractory, Kaowool IS a refractory, just not desirable in flame contact.

Where did you get the plans for the burner? That one really stinks on several counts. There is no good reason to point the gas jet into the air flow., ZERO. It's just some guy's idea of a better way to get propane and air to mix. If you're going to drill and weld for the gas jet put it well before the first 90, the longer it's in the air stream turning corners the more thoroughly it'll mix. 

Blow driers are inadequate. One glaring reason you can't get welding heat is you can't put enough flammable fuel air mix in the chamber per second, blow driers just can't move enough air to burn enough fuel to do the job. Make sense? 

Space your burners farther apart, about 1/3 spacing between for a 2 burner forge. As close as they are now the forge has a strong hot spot so it's not good for heat treating unless you're going to pass your blade back and forth through the heart in which case make your forge shorter.

Make sense?

Frosty The Lucky.

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If you follow the recommendations given so far you will 110% be welding your heart out; I speak from experience. Plistix is amazing stuff, don't forget about that reradiating coat. Also, thank you for serving.

 

To clarify, my experience is with welding heat and not pattern welding. I dont pattern weld. (Yet)

Edited by MCalvert
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One of the mattress inflater blowers might do the trick. Fall is a good time to find them for cheap at yard/garage/etc. sales as camping season is over though I can get one at Wallyworld for under $20. in  the off season. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Ok as for frosty’s first comment I do pass back and forth for my larger knives I have made so I don’t burn the metal to sheet lol for smaller ones it don’t take long there in and out in no time with not much scale build up at all that’s why I say good forge temp. Although I could be wrong I don’t know for sure. As for the tubes being placed into the air not with I was having some problems with it and tried just to get the mix better and it seemed to work out for me for forging. Again can’t weld but forge and heat treat not bad at all. 
 

irondragon I do have a shop vac I could try and see if that is the problem thank you

frosty. I tried the biggest and baddest inflator I could find that was 120vac and as for the air flow the blow dryer puts more water column then the 30$ Inflator we already had. But I will try the shop vac and see if that can push a better static pressure  and a better mix. Also I will try making a forge with more kwool and less refractory just cuz atm I’m home and board af lol 

thank you all please keep the comments coming  because I have the tools and mats will make new stuff I’m board right now lol

I actually think I’ll go try the shop vac and see if it pushes enough static pressure to really make that thing glow just cuz I’m board irondragon I’ll let ya know. If not we’ll it’s new forge making time then I guess 

I actually think I’ll go try the shop vac and see if it pushes enough static pressure to really make that thing glow just cuz I’m board irondragon I’ll let ya know. If not we’ll it’s new forge making time then I guess 

 

ooo frosty reason I put them facing into the wind was I seen people that had somewhat the same problem and just put the gas into the wind and it mixed better so I tried it and for forging heat worked out just not for welding heat

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When I suggested mattress inflators I forgot you'd made 1 1/2" burners and no, they aren't adequate. I heat a larger volume when my variable geometry forge is arranged for long stock. 4.5" x 8" x 18" with two 3/4" Naturally aspirated T burners, I haven't run the numbers but I'm running maybe 20% the burner you are and I can weld easily. 

Naturally aspirated or gun (blown) doesn't really  matter. What matters is delivering enough fuel air mix per second to generate the heat. I don't have a dog in that fight, I don't care. 

Your problem is NOT aiming the gas jet into the flow, you have them tuned nicely, nice flames. Unfortunately there just isn't enough mix available. If you use a shop vac, you should get plenty of air but you'll run into the problem of trying to force propane out of the jet fighting the air flow. A shop vac uses high velocity to generate high volume. Velocity is pressure and you've aimed the jet into it. It's no biggy, if it causes a problem turn the elbows you've mounted the jets in around so the jet is facing with the flow.  Yes?

Please don't think I'm harshing on you, I'm not I'm only trying to point out things to correct to get what you want. I've been messing with burners for more than 40 years though seldom gun burners. They're not really much different, fire is fire. Fuel, oxygen, ignition source = fire, a little more, a little less and you have the fire you want. It's a balancing act and I'll be honored if I can help you get up and running.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I think what I will do is leave the one I have like it is since it does hit a good forge temp and metal is easy to work without killing my arm swinging a hammer and just get a small roll of kwool and make a second that I will try with more wool and get some of the ir reflective coating that was mentioned. Scared if I try screwing with the one I can at lest forge with it will become useless lol. I have everything to make a second one and when I make it smaller like you all recommend I’ll have way more then enough everything else without the kwool 

and frosty I don’t think your saying anything wrong at all. I would rather have more facts from others and what’s working for them so I can try and get what I need out of all of it and make something that works for what I need. So please by all means speak your minds. I promise I will not go cry cuz I didn’t get my way lmao I’m old school tell it how it is :-D

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