Jack Hirsch Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Hey at this I've done three wrought iron runs and I believe I'm ready for something more "exotic". And I hear that phosphorus wrought iron while it has its downsides does have the positive properties I need for an upcoming project. Does anyone know how to add phosphorus to the smelt? I've heard bones or goose poop work but idk in what quantities or at what stage to add them. Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Hirsch Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 *at this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Are you trying to make it cold short? Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 What are the positive properties? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Phosphorus is a hardening element and it has positive musical qualities I have read. (Harpsichord strings IIRC) Addition was during bloomery smelting of goose poop material (You were supposed to file a sword blade and feed the geese the filings.) Or smelting of high phosphorus bog ores. I'll check "Sources for the History of the Science of Steel" to see if it has any mention of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Hirsch Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 Thank you very much Thomas. That's what I had originally heard but I'm pretty sure PETA would have a field day with that. I'm wondering if just mixing dried droppings into the pellets would be sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 I think that the stomach acids were thought to remove bad stuff from the metal as well as the addition of the phosphorus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Hirsch Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 Ahhhh okay that makes some sense from a non-scientific point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Reading up on this in the book "The Making, Shaping, & Treating of Steel" Published by the U.S. Steel Corporation about a zillion years ago (my copy is 1957)--since phosphorous increases brittleness, you tend to want to keep it to .1% of less...and keep the carbon level down at the same time Phosphorous goes up or you get a hunk of "glass". Addition of aluminum to control grain growth can partially overcome that. As to the addition...they go into pages and pages all about removal/reduction but right now the only thing I can find on additions is " Ferrophosphorous in two grades containing, respectively, 17 to 19 percent and 23 to 26 percent phosphorous is usually added in the ladle". That's in the section on how and where to add herbs and spices so I assume something similar can be done on a smaller scale...knowing the near exact mass of the heat so you can get the content right. They don't usually stir things once in the ladle so I can't say how it actually gets properly distributed. Obviously a wrought bloom would be a little different than an open hearth steel like this so maybe you can adapt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 4 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: (You were supposed to file a sword blade and feed the geese the filings.) "New Scientist", May 5, 1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Hirsch Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 Thank you all for the great information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Blade de Foie Gras; a specialty of the smith. As I recall there was a series of discussion on phosphorus in iron alloys in the Archaeology Metallurgy mailing list. You might search on the archives. And as the Saga attests---don't mess with a smith! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Hirsch Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 9 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Blade de Foie Gras; a specialty of the smith. Yes or in lowbrow terms you shall be slain with a blade of a thousand movements Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Welcome aboard Jack... Have you read this yet? READ THIS FIRST I always suggest it to get the best out of the forum. It's full of tips like editing your profile to show your location, how to do a better search and others to help keep the moderators happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Hirsch Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Blade de Foie Gras; a specialty of the smith I'm gonna have to use that saying. 2 hours ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said: Welcome aboard Jack... Have you read this yet? READ THIS FIRST I have now thanks for the information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 So...file a sword, geese eat filings, collect poo, roast poo, smelt poo, refine? How the heck do you get that job? And how the heck did they find this out originally? Even if you just randomly happened to notice that your goose was eating your filings...as geese are wont to do, of course, how did it ever occur to someone to save enough to smelt, then make a bloom? Starving the geese I at least see, as if I were a goose, I'd turn up my nose at iron filings for breakfast too. And if they had to recreate it, why a duck? Why not go the full distance...aside from the fact that geese are mean? And I thought that the first person to try an oyster must have been desperate...what the heck was exactly wrong with Wayland? What other crazy alchemical stuff did he try to figure this out? Almost makes quenching in the urine of redheaded boys seem practically ordinary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Hirsch Posted February 26, 2020 Author Share Posted February 26, 2020 Hey don't be mean to the pee sword, it's very useful. I mean Wayland was a pretty crazy dude with the whole skull goblet ordeal and the flying. And hey like some odd inventions occur it probably either started as a gimmick or a drunken idea/bet. I can see two heavily drunk blacksmith's making ridiculous bets like "Hey Jerry, bet you can't make a poo sword, no no Jerry not a bad sword but a sword literally made from poo" and Jerry ofc being the idiot he was decided to do it and found it to be a harder iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 Not to mention that basing your research on oral tradition is a very weak reed indeed! You might as well go with George Washington's axe and cherry tree. I notice it doesn't address material losses in just re-smelting the stuff. Now taking broken sword pieces and forge welding them actually has a fairly sound basis: Why did the sword break? It was too brittle in some spot. What makes it brittle---wrong carbon content in that spot, higher, for the heat treat used. What does welding a billet do? It evens carbon content out across the billet and lowers it too. So Presto a tougher sword! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 "The Sword-That-Was-Broken, Now-Hastily-Reglued"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 John; have you read "Bored of the Rings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 In wrought iron phosphorus can provide some corrosion resistance. In some low alloy steels it is added to aid machinability but those are exceptions. In bloomery iron making it would most likely have been an impurity in the ore or maybe in the coal if mineral coal was used for fuel. Today it is an Intentional addition to liquid steel during steel making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 Doesn't excess phosphorus cause wrought iron to be cold short? Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferritic Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 My understanding was that phosphorus segregates to grain boundaries and embrittles ferritic steel. Therefore, in most cases, it would be considered an unwanted impurity in the alloy. What are the positive properties that it adds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 As i mentioned it can improve corrosion resistance, machinability and to some degree hardenability. It does indeed segregate to grain boundaries leading to hot shortness, but if the phosphorus content is not too high you could see those benefits. 12L14 is an example af a free machining grade that has both phosphorus and lead as Intentional additions to improve machinability. Most steels used in engineering applications consider it to be an impurity so there are not many examples of its use in modern steel making. Even in the historical context it was there not added on purpose but was a carryover from the ore or fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 However it was preferentially used in early blades due to the greater hardness---cf "The Celtic Sword" Radomir Pleiner; where pieces of higher phosphorous content were selected for the edges of blades. Phosphorous is fairly common in bog ores, (and bones), and is seen in early iron a lot more than in modern steels where the specs list it as "Less than X amount" as an unwanted tramp element. In the current issue of Archeology, Jan-Feb 2021, there is a short blurb on page 15 "Persian Steel" which notes that they were making crucible steel around the 11th century that contained 1-2% chromium that seems to have been intentionally added, (description on making crucible steel by Abu Rayhan Biruni, 10th or 11 century, mentions what may be a local chromite mineral) and had elevated phosphorus, around 2%, that while it would help reduce the melting temp would result in a more brittle alloy and may have been an ore contaminant. Note: crucible steel in Western Europe is generally associated with Benjamin Huntsman in the 1700's! It was well known in places like Merv in central Asia 1000 years earlier. Please note that not all crucible steel was Wootz; although all Wootz was crucible steel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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