MilwaukeeJon Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Could it be for scoring an arrow-like marks timber of some sort—logs, architectural beams, or something to the effect? Flipping the tool allows you to mark a left and right “<“ “>” while standing on the same side of the thing being struck. The large weight and longer hand make me think it is for striking something rather than carving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilwaukeeJon Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Sorry, should read “Could it be for scoring arrow-like marks on timber of some sort”.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 A friend has connections with the editor of Farm Collector Magazine and offered to send it along for their whatizit segment that appears in every issue. Might take a while but their readers are often amazing in what they can identify....and have actually used in the good old days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 That exciting.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 I have a completely different idea. What if it's for grafting rootstock to scions? That joint has to be a clean cut where one part is pointed, the other is part is Vee'd. Seems like it'd make pretty quick work of a fairly precise operation in an agricultural situation where you'd probably have to do this for every plant in the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 I like it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Scanlan Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 On 1/30/2020 at 4:41 PM, rockstar.esq said: What if it's for grafting rootstock to scions? Its possible, though wouldnt this tool be oversized for a job like that? Kozzy, I appreciate it. I also contacted Jon Townsend from Townsend and sons, hopefully someone can I.d. it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 M. S., The Smithsonian Institution has a group that identifies "mystery tools". They also have a section, (with pictures), that features tools that even they have failed to identify. Sorry I have misplaced the u.r.l. for it. So you need to do a little digging. If you find it, please post it here. Thanks. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 On 1/31/2020 at 3:50 PM, Matt Scanlan said: Its possible, though wouldnt this tool be oversized for a job like that? Matt, From the wikipedia page on plant grafting, they say that larger trees and shrubs may require hatchets, cleavers, etc. to cut. They also say that a precision fit is vital to the success of the graft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Scanlan Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 Went out and tested it. It does make very uniform cuts. And once it gets started you can use the two grip handle to put some power behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 So, still not on board with the chinking thing huh?? As pointed out all ready.. Each facet of blade design and use i have pointed out has proven true.. So?? I should have waited to the end to spring it all.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilwaukeeJon Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 26 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: Interesting to see the cuts in the pics above. My one remaining question is this: If for edging logs for chinking, for example doing the cuts with the logs lying side-by-side on the ground, wouldn't it be more logical to orient the V blades vertically (with the thin end up) so that you could use it more like an adze? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Nope.. It all comes down to who used the tool, area, ethnicity, demographics, custom tooling, etc, etc.People used to invent stuff all the time.. Oh, wait, they still do.. If the beams are stacked you can run down it left or right. .. again, it is not swung like an ax. LIke people think it is.. You did a great job using it and it was neat how it worked just the way I said it would.. Isn't it.. LOL. LOL.. You guys are funny.. I'm really just joking around as apparently no one wants to believe what it was used for.. If no one can agree on chinking.. Can it at least be agreed on it's used for forming a continuous groove in wood? Huh, can we at least agree on that.. LOL.. chuckle, chuckle, chuckle.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilwaukeeJon Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 I sent pics off to Jim Bode, the great vintage tool collector and dealer, and he's not seen anything like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Scanlan Posted February 6, 2020 Author Share Posted February 6, 2020 22 minutes ago, MilwaukeeJon said: and he's not seen anything like it! It's really starting to look like this was more of a "tool of necessity" rather than tool of a trade. Which in my mind makes it all the more special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 I was thinking "I have a really great idea for a tool! I wonder why nobody else came up with this??? Oh..." Back when getting custom designs was as simple as going to a local smith and saying "make me this". I bet a lot of oddball stuff got made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Scanlan Posted February 7, 2020 Author Share Posted February 7, 2020 11 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Back when getting custom designs was as simple as going to a local smith and saying "make me this Which makes it sad that most smiths cant make a living off it anymore. I know i've come up with a few weird and wacky tools to fit my needs, but most people either don't know blacksmiths still exist or they're too comfortable paying for a tool everyone else has from a box store and just 'making it work'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Over the years i have made about 5 special handled tools.. 4 square corner chisels.. a handful of chisels/punches. 1 hammer all for outside use.. I think a lot of the problem is people don't understand what a blacksmith actually does/did. It's why all my cards and adverts say tools or tooling. the largest problem I ran into is price.. people always look at what something will cost based on the hardware store.. The people don't care it's hand made or custom.. They only care it's 200.00 for vs that screw driver hanging up on the shelf for 3.00. The items I have made were done for people who understood and wanted a custom tool because "they" wanted it made to help with a job even though it was much more money. This type of person is excited about the tool and I had one guy who came back 3 or 4 times for redesigns as he would use the tool, he would find this or that.. This kind of person is great to work for and was not only fun, but the person was fun to talk to.. they are usually so excited. Hand tools used to be something to be proud of and you would keep your prized tool in a locked chest and clean and lube the tools to keep them in the best shape for use as they could be.. Sounds a lot like a machinist tool chest right.. Its a strange world today as hammers/ handle punches and such are sold and many are making a living selling these items to other new smiths. Thats great. but reaching outside of the blacksmithing community for decent priced tooling is a tough one. Most smiths are not setup in a production capacity for a reasonably priced forging for a 1 off.. and most smiths don't want to even do the work.. Where I see the most type of chance is with Newer smiths who get asked to do something and they do the "I think I can do this".. and they get 4 or 10 hrs into it and are like dang.. I never thought it would have taken that long. But I learned a bunch. All for 50.00. I know a bunch of older smiths, long term who have no interested in making anything other than what they want to.. (IE there normal product line). They have no interest at all on making a 1 off tool.. why. No money in it.. Newer hungry smiths on the other hand have that just right combination of not knowing how long something will really take, and having the lack of knowledge to base what really needs to be done.. sure they figure it out. but these smiths are far more open to the experiment. So for the regular ornamental smith or artist smith today unless it peeks their interest, there is no interest and there are not very many trade smiths around that will make anything out of metal because they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 On 2/4/2020 at 11:20 AM, jlpservicesinc said: If no one can agree on chinking.. Can it at least be agreed on it's used for forming a continuous groove in wood? Huh, can we at least agree on that.. LOL.. chuckle, chuckle, chuckle.. So far you've repeatedly offered one possible use for this tool without providing much proof beyond your self confidence. It's entirely possible that you're correct. It's also possible that you're not. It'll make a groove. Neat, it'll also make a corner, a point, a cleft, a matched pair of cuts, and a stress riser. However, to show respect to your suggestion, lets actually consider the application that you're presenting. Chinking is the material jammed in between logs or timbers to seal them from the environment. In the case of timbers, the builders had to square the logs . The most common way of doing this was to snap lines, then chop relief cuts such that hewing blows would cleave a relatively flat surface to minimize the amount of broad ax work to bring everything true. Often, the cleaved chunks were hewn into pegs which were used to peg the joinery. In stacked timber framing, you have to cut a groove in the bottom mating side for chinking. This presumably, is where you believe this ax comes in. To use this tool, you'd be swinging like a baseball bat standing to one side of the timber. Every cut would have to be short otherwise the swing will cut an arc, and the groove depth won't self register. So far so good, it's still technically feasible. However that cut looks to be maybe 1/2" deep. That's a pretty shallow cut for chinking a timber. Most of the ones I've seen run 2" deep. Also, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that people would go to all the work of squaring and hewing a log anywhere but at ground level where they can stand on it. Using an awkward sideways swing to slowly cut a precise square cornered half inch groove just doesn't make much sense. When the timbers are stacked, the chinking groove is hidden. All inconsistencies in the fit up between timbers are filled with the chinking. Making a shallow groove with a fiddly tool that deprives you of momentum seems like it would be a hard sell. Then again, there are all sorts of dubious tools on offer today that are obviously marketed to dullards. After all, it slices and dices! When rustic log homes were made, the chinking groove was often just hacked in with a standard ax. If there's no need for the precision of an adze, a plane, or a chisel, you can get the building put up faster. Roy Underhill had a presentation about how the English settlers in America struggled to get established partly because of their tradition for timber framing. When Scandinavians arrived, they used log framing techniques to get their homes built in a fraction of the time. Even today, most people can't afford to wait for a home to be built slowly. While I'll happily concede that you may still be right, I'd like you to consider just two things. The oldest cutting tools in human history are the ax and the adze. Manual lumber processing has always been hard work that doesn't pay unless you can get the work done quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Your way to serious.. I don't really care. It's all been in good fun.. Glad I could contribute.. After all these years and designing tools for use by hand.. I could see what it was for right out of the gate.. No question in my mind on how it was used.. chuckle, chuckle.. Was it used for chinking.. Probably not.. but who is to say it wasn't and since it was the only logical explanation.. It's what I went to.. So, the point is.. It's fun and I was just being "Funny".. Though I do know exactly what it was used for.. Putting a groove into wood from both a left hand or right hand swing.. Just as I have said all along.. Just as I have explained the reason for the shape of blade.. LOL.. Tahdah.. LOL. . thumbs up and all that jazz. 14 minutes ago, rockstar.esq said: In stacked timber framing, you have to cut a groove in the bottom mating side for chinking. This presumably, is where you believe this ax comes in. To use this tool, you'd be swinging like a baseball bat standing to one side of the timber. Every cut would have to be short otherwise the swing will cut an arc, and the groove depth won't self register. So far so good, it's still technically feasible. It's the top that gets the chinking.. Not the bottom.. And again.. You are assuming it is swung like and ax which it is not.. You are basing all of your assumptions on the knowledge on what you assume was done from a previous interview or what have you.. Just because one or 5 examples are shown it does not mean that is how everyone did it.. Don't be so hung up because Roy U. said it this way or that way.. He's just one person.. How many different ways are there to boil water.. Drop mic.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Scanlan Posted February 7, 2020 Author Share Posted February 7, 2020 1 hour ago, jlpservicesinc said: And again.. You are assuming it is swung like and ax which it is not.. Agreed. From personally testing it, swinging it like an axe or adze is pointless. That long handle lets you get alot of force behind it as you push the blade down the work piece. Also allows for very controlled changes of angle if you want to change direction or widen the groove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilwaukeeJon Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Fun conversation about this really bizarre tool! Could indeed be for chinking but it is small, and furthermore since one already would be shaping the log with a very controllable broad axe, why not bevel along the edge with the same tool? Matt, my other follow up question to your first-hand observation is this: Why would the maker put a swinging type axe handle on a tool that is meant to be pushed or pulled along the wood grain (sort of in the manner of a draw knife or a little router plane with winged handles)? Seems oddly inefficient. Finally, I wonder if the bevel is any indicator of use? It looks a bit chunky or am I not seeing that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 It's meant to be swung or it would have a striking end to hit with a hammer or so it would seem. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Pnut, not at all.. So many today are totally out of touch on how many of the older tools were used because of a limited and intimate understanding.. Just because it has a handle like an ax does not mean it's swung like an ax at all.. Duck and quaking does not apply here or on many other tools. You can see from the handle where it is clean how it was used and also the modifications of use.. Forget it as an ax at all.. Don't fall into the same trappings as so many others with limit fore site on older techniques.. There has been more forgotten than has been understood in the modern world.. We are not as smart as people of the past.. We simply have moved away from physical understanding into a false cyber world.. Bitcoin and cyrpto currency is nothing but 1 and 0's yet there are millionairs of nothing for nothing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 20 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: Your way to serious.. I don't really care. It's all been in good fun.. Glad I could contribute.. So other people's opinions are just jokes if they differ from your's? Tell me Jennifer, how many log cabins and or homes have YOU built? Ever live in one over a winter? Know anything about log or timber construction? Your habit of making light of other peoples opinions, knowledge and experience is why you rarely see me posting in a thread in which you have. I'm going to regret this one I know but I couldn't stand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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