Burners not performing well and feeling ill

[Wayne5407]

So I made a triple burner forge, the burner is a linear style, with valves to control one two and three. All is fed from one to the next. They are fixed jets. I used 1/4” galvanized pipe for the fuel line and tapped into that for my .023 mig tip. The rest is 1 3/4 bell reducers with 8 x 3/4” pipe. Both ends have bell reducers. Inside diameter of forge is 6.5” wide, 18” long, and 9” in height. I have a 20lb lp tank, with a 12ft hose and 20psi adjustable regulator. My issue is burner one and two run okay, but they are not loud, flame seems stable with burner number three off. Back is covered with removable bricks, and front is covered by other bricks when I’m heating my billet, after 25-30 mins on 20 psi my billet online reaches orange, it just starts to look wet, when I turn burner 3 on, 1 and 2 die down a bit, but the flame coming out of the forge is more of a low psi type flame, I’ve tried drilling holes into the pipe below jet to infuse more air, recently made forge taller because number 2 would not stay lit, and that seemed to help a lot, my issue is my forge doesn’t seem to get hot enough, and I have a deep 2 car garage where I can fit one car side ways and a ranger and a small car in side by side with some room to work with two windows open, garage door open all the way and the actual door open I started to feel very nauseous, so I feel like they are not burning optimally because I have 155,000 btu torpedo heater I can run with the big door open 8inchs to a foot, warm the whole garage and not feel the way I did. Not sure what to do, I thought about adding another tank but when I had the top off each burner ran great in free air so I’m not even sure what to do at this point, I’ve tried making the forge bigger, adding holes for air and still nothing, please help 

[Jon Kerr]

Do you have a Carbon Monoxide detector cloee to your forge? You really should.

Cant help with the burner issues, sorry. Someone more experienced will be along shortly Im sure!

[Wayne5407]

I took one out to the garage from inside after I shut down left it there for a few minutes and it didn’t go off, and it’s brand new. But I will have the next to me when it’s running

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome to IFI... I suggest reading this to get the best out of the forum, it is full of helpful tips like editing your profile to show your location and how to keep the moderators happy. READ THIS FIRST

I'm with Jon your symptoms sound like CO poisoning. I recommend not running the forge inside the garage, especially if it's attached to the house. What type of ventilation system do you have? We will need more information and pictures of the forge running to give helpful advice.

[Jon Kerr]

Get a CO detector with a digital readout. That way you can watch if the levels rise even if the alarm hasnt triggered yet.

 

[Wayne5407]

I took pics of the forge I’ll take pictures of the area i have, also garage is not hooked up to house, I have a 20lb LP tank

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

From what I gleaned from your first post the forge is running extremely rich and putting out a copious amount of carbon monoxide. I can not stress strongly enough do not run the forge inside the garage, especially if it's an attached garage. To do so you are putting your family at risk. You might want to read this.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/62131-co-is-a-killer-but-co2-is-as-well/

and this

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/64151-a-question-of-ventilation/

 

[Wayne5407]

Big garage door and small door were both open. Garage is separate from house, figured that would be enough ventilation 

[Wayne5407]

Big garage door and small door were both open. Garage is separate from house, figured that would be enough ventilation 

Iron dragon, from what I read In the first link seemed to be very helpful and confirmed one of my fears. I think because I welded the burner tube to the top plate instead of having a collar and suspending it may be my issue for the reason it’s not burning and the co2. From what I understood in the link is that the secondary air source help the burner run safer and not create as much exhaust gas, and since it is welded shut, there is no secondary air source other than the holes I drilled in the tubes. Only reason for welding those shut was because I didn’t have something big enough to make a hole for the collar, and wanted to save time on drilling. I don’t think my ventilation is terrible as it’s a decent size, and as mentioned in intital post I run the 155,000 btu kerosene heater with the big door cracked less than a foot without similar symptoms. I’ll have to cut the tubes off, and find a way to redrill holes big enough in a new plate to accommodate the burners. But on a side note, if I do that would I be able to reduce my forge height to half again? Or would that be too much back pressure?

[Mikey98118]

You don't have a single point of failure; rather you have a series of inadequacies that are creating a cumulative problem.

(A) You should have 2" x 3/4" reducers at a minimum; larger would be better.

(B) you should have .023"  MIG tips screwed into the cross pipes; not just holes.

(C) weak burner flames absolutely need secondary air to be induced into the forge, through the space between mixing tube and burner port, by the flame.

(D) Multiple burners create more back pressure in the forge, which tends to smother weak flames.

So, your problem has collected, one insufficiency at a time. The smart move now is to reduce it, one change at a time

Edited December 29, 2019 by Mikey98118
Typo

[Wayne5407]

I have .023 mig tip in cross bar and as far as c goes, is that the area I have welded through the plate? Where there should be a collar? And will the reducers work or do I absolutely need them replaced?

[swedefiddle]

Happy Almost,

Mikey made suggestions along with the suggestion to 'make One Change at a time'!! This is the most important suggestion!! I would advise you to keep a note pad and make a record of what changes, when you make "One Change"!! This will help you gain knowledge of what works and how. The type of gas nozzles you have (a hole in a pipe) are absolutely imperative that they be in center and the hole pointed toward the center of the pipe/nozzle. It is very difficult to adjust 3 jets to be perfect, in your application. You also NEED TO REMOVE THE BURR of when you drilled the holes for the jet, inside and out!!!

Bigger Forge is not a better Forge. Start with a single burner Forge and learn the nuances of Gas Forges. The next problem you will have is freezing the Propane Bottle because of the quantity of draw. Enjoy the Journey.

Neil

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Pictures of the burners running will be a big help with diagnosing problems. I forgot about the problem of tank freezing with a small bottle.

[Mikey98118]

2 hours ago, swedefiddle said:

Mikey made suggestions along with the suggestion to 'make One Change at a time'!! This is the most important suggestion!! I

Do give credit where it is due; it's Frosty who has pushed this very smart advice for some time now

[Wayne5407]

In order, 1) burner 1 (2) burner 2, (3) burner two with back closed (4) burner 3. I did have burner one and two running like pic one last time I ran it 

I plan on making adjustable collars instead of welding it closed, because drilling in the pipe seemed to not make much of a difference and ended up welding the holes up a bit because I went too big

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Wayne, glad to have you. Who's burner plans did you follow? Have you asked them what's wrong? Or did you wing it from watching forged in fire or maybe a Youtube video?

Mikey was being nice, those burners are a mess on so many fronts it'd be surprised if you can make them work. 

The pics show exactly why they made you sick. They are burning so rich they could be used in a gas chamber. Do NOT operate those in ANY enclosed space. As you have said already having every door and window in your garage open wasn't enough ventilation. Don't argue about what you THINK is enough, that bunch of burners are VERY DANGEROUS, LIFE THREATENINGLY DANGEROUS CARBON MONOXIDE GENERATORS.

It's NOT CO2 though they're generating some. The killer is CO Carbon Monoxide and CO is cumulative, it bonds 80 times as readily to your hemoglobin than does O2, Oxygen the stuff you need to stay alive. Moderate CO exposures can take a week to clear completely from your blood. If you spent a couple hours with those burners you probably need a month or better to clear your blood.

Might be a good idea to see a doctor. No, I AM NOT exaggerating!! That set of burners is very dangerous, I wouldn't stand down wind in the open and I've been building Naturally Aspirated burners for a good 30 years. I know what I'm talking about.

For help to make those work. 

Remove all of them from your forge. Build ONE burner, once you have ONE working properly the next will be a piece of cake, you'll already know what works. Make sense?

If you wish to build a linear burner search Ron Reil's burners I believe the plans are archived at ABANA's site. Follow those plans EXACTLY and you'll build a GOOD burner. Then build another, that forge is WAY too small to need 3. 

Your mixing tube should be 6" long.

The intake bell should be 3/4" x 1 1/2" MINIMUM.

However you aligned the gas jets it didn't work. Not one of the visible flames in the pictures is centered and another reason they're so dangerously out of tune. 

I'm not trying to discourage you, I want you to be able to practice the craft as safely as possible. To do so there are pieces of equipment that MUST be constructed and maintained correctly or you risk: injury, health in general, out of control fire or a friend finding your cold stiff body on the shop floor. I lost a friend some years ago because he didn't understand or follow basic safe practices. He was power brushing a knife blank which was grabbed by the wheel and was driven through his heart. He was dead before he hit the floor.

If you aren't experienced with shop tools take a look at my T burner, it requires fewer shop tools and skills to make an effective burner. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

 

[Latticino]

To be honest I'm kind of surprised that one of your burners works as well as it does.  I'm going to be brutally honest here, because there are a lot of potential safety issues.  In addition to what has already been mentioned:

1. You drilled holes in the mixing tube to induce more air.  They need to be upstream of or next to the gas orifice to work for proper induction, yours are far downstream and  are just letting gas/air mixture out of your burner above the forge body (hint, this is not good).  As Frosty said, until you fully understand burner design it is a lot safer to follow someones proven burner design EXACTLY.  If the design doesn't have clear dimensions for all aspects of the burner (geometry, materials, assembly details...), find another design to follow.
2. Looks like you are using hard half firebricks for your forge body.  If so they will be both poor insulation as well as being heat sinks.  If they are hard fire bricks I would strongly recommend that you case the hard splits with full thickness of soft, insulating firebrick.  If they are already soft fire bricks, you need more thickness to be sufficient insulation for an efficient forge.
3.  Why do you feel you need such a huge forge?  A good first gas forge size, with one burner that will be much easier to tune, is around 6" x 6" in crossection and 8" long.
4. In my opinion a 20 gal tank is much too small for a 3 burner forge.  Running full out it will most likely ice up and cause you problems.
5. Your burner outlets (flares) are inside the forge.  If it ever got up to temperature they would burn up.  Also they appear to be galvanized steel.  Burner flares often get quite hot and zinc fever isn't any good either.
6. A box forge with top entry burners doesn't work effectively, or safely, with just the burners valved off to run one and keep the others on standby.  How will you keep the heat from rising up into the inactive burner, heating the manifold and potentially leading to preignition in the mixing tube?
7. Your gas manifold is set with gas entry at one end and isolation valves to turn off separate burners.  You have no effective way to balance the system.  The manifold design is very poor, lacking a large tube manifold with branches that can be balanced with needle valves.
8. You need to do a lot more research before you make your next gas forge.  This one is frankly a bit dangerous.  It is like you are trying to build a car transmission after seeing a picture of one from the outside and using only bicycle parts to make it.  You might want to consider just buying a commercial forge.  There are a lot more acceptable ones out there now than there used to be.
9. Having large open doors is good, but unless there is some kind of cross breeze you can still have a stagnant pocket containing a large amount of CO.  I recommend some positive ventilation for your shop (a fan or at least some way to take advantage of the natural buoyancy of the hot flue gasses <i.e. a large roof vent>).  I have both in my shop, and I design HVAC systems for a living.

I agree with Frosty.  If you are feeling sick after working with that forge, go see a doctor and get checked out!

[Wayne5407]

Appreciate the help everyone and the reason I went with three was to reduce heat time, but I guess it wasted more time in the end. And from what o was reading on a link above was I had no secondary source which would be the collars I should’ve put in but instead welded shut trying to save time. I’m pretty familiar with shop tools and what not, but clearly not when it comes to the science of the burners. Latticino the burners flares are black pipe, 3/4 mixing tube, with 1” to 3/4 reducers, only galvanized metal on this build is the fuel rail. When building it everything was as centered as I possible could get it, I had burner 2 running like the picture of burner 1 was running, I think my issue is I didn’t put the collar in like the build I followed, that’s the only part i strayed from, that’s why in the picture I show the 8 x 3/4 pipe with the bigger pipe around it, because that’s what I found at menards that I thought could make work, am I wrong on the secondary air source assumption? Also when I had all 3 in free air they seemed to run very well, also I do try and follow every safety procedure possible, the moment I started feeling too off I shut down and got out.  As far as the fire brick it was something I found at  menards for ovens and what not for around 2000 degrees. Really don’t want to start over if I don’t have to, but I don’t want to die either. Does anyone have a link of Ron’s burners and maybe the proper bricks I need? YouTube has a few things but have to take ideas from everybody which sucks. Any good easy builds out there?

[Latticino]

Any chance the build you followed was directly from, or inspired by, the King of Random?  If so, probably not the best source for info.

It is a lot harder to tune (3) naturally aspirated burners in a forge than either (3) in open air or (1) in a forge.  What some folks don't realize is that burners also need a correctly sized combustion chamber to work effectively, not to mention most have characteristic flame lengths that must be accommodated.  You also have to deal with back pressure issues with NA burners.  Personally I've always thought that forced air burners were a lot easier to build and tune, but you do have to address safety system issues with potential power outages.

Light weight, insulating firebricks are typically available from ceramic supply houses, or industrial insulation supply firms.  Glen also sells forge building materials through this IFI site:  https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/254-gas-forge-refractories-and-supplies/

10 second google search for Ron Reil burners gave me this: https://www.google.com/search?q=ron+reil+burner&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS878US878&oq=ron+reil+burner+&aqs=chrome..69i57.3726j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8.  Surely you can do the same and find better info.  Specifically I recommend this page: https://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml.  Some of the information is a bit dated, but it is a great stepping off point.  One of our members here has written a book on forge and burner design (Mikey98118), not sure if it is still available for purchase.

[Wayne5407]

No, the YouTuber I followed was “handy guy”. But in all honesty I wonder if I’m having back pressure issues, also with the fact my burners are in the forge itself. I see many designs and it’s hard to pick just one. Also from what I read is the tuning should be done outside of the forge, but when I run my burners outside they looked and sounded good. I’ll have to cut the top off once more and take a pic. Everytime I light the forge with 3 burners on the whole garage shakes from the force and I light it within seconds on medium pressure. May have to hold off on this project if I can’t use what I have because I have a good chunk of money in what seems to be a huge failure and it’s disappointing to say the least. Typically I have no problem with research, but I was more or less searching for a clear cut answer as to what my issues may be, and I don’t think any have been answered specifically.. for example, I understand the forge is running rich, but how do I solve that problem? Bigger flares on the ends, drill holes? Add collars for secondary air flow? I’m just looking for simple answers that are quick and obvious, instead of wondering if my alignments off, or if there’s a burr, because the burners run fine in free air, instead I’ve received information that was not relevant to my specific question and overwhelming amounts of information that may or may not even be my problem, when the main question was how do I make these burn right, do I need air? Do I need space, something along those lines, I do appreciate the tips, information and links more than you guys know as I will spend my free time reaserching, but I feel like my questions are still out there. Also I’m not aiming to come off rude by any means so please don’t take this the wrong way, also I hope everyone has a safe and happy New Years.

[Latticino]

You want a simple answer...  OK, yes you need to induce more air for proper combustion.  Follow the linked Ron Riel design when you rebuild your burners or contact the You Tuber whose design you copied, then modified for free in depth diagnosis of your issues.

Good luck, try not to kill yourself.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

10 hours ago, Wayne5407 said:

But in all honesty I wonder if I’m having back pressure issues, also with the fact my burners are in the forge itself

Here's an idea. Stop second guessing the folks who have been designing, building and using burners, forges and ventilation systems for decades. I hope you have a Happy, prosperous and safe new year.

[Wayne5407]

Ok, I think that I need more air is pretty obvious. What am I changing? Longer or shorter mixing tubes, bigger flares? Smaller jets.. like how am I supposed to achieve this goal is what I’ve been after.. also forge, how am I second guessing? I simply made a hypothesis on where I think I XXXXXX up.. I already have the design I like, now what about it needs to be different? This is where I’m getting frustrated at

[G-son]

Have you read the "Burners 101" thread? I know it's crazy long and the information is spread out all over it, but there's great info about the basics of burners in there. I've read it several times, and I still learn something new when I dive in.

[Mikey98118]

It is very hard to arrive at the right destination by starting out in the wrong direction.

Have you read the "T" burner directions that Frosty posted on this site?"  Have you read the "burners 101 thread here?  Have you read Ron Riel's burner pages that are available on the Net? Have you read through the Larry Zoeller Forge site? Take your choice and build a successful burner.