Shabumi

Questions about a hook

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My buddy asked for a large hook that he can use to catch and pull out a few trees in his pond that are too far out to get with his excavator.

My first question is, is there already a product out there that is designed for the task already that I can copy? All I've been able to come up with when searching is small dredging hooks meant to pull weeds at the bottom of the pond, or grappling hooks for climbing trees, neither is quite what I was looking for. 

Question 2: if the grappling hook is what I'm looking for, how large of a hook would I need to pull out a water logged pine that's ~2.5ft diameter at the base and 20-30ft long?

Question 3: is there a certain angle for the pointy part of the hook to be to be able to hook and sink in? The trees are deep enough that it would be tough to manually attach them, so hooking them is the best option I see.

Question 4: would such a hook need to be hardened, or would it be ok without?

Any info that could get me closer to a working tool would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

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Do a search for "log tongs". They are not overly complicated but the angles need to be right for it to grab. Good luck and happy forging.

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G.F.H.,

Has listed a good search phrase, namely,

"Do a search for "log tongs"  …."

Amazon,  for example,  displays a whole bunch of them, of various different types. 

They look like a fun project for a smith.

But if your friend is budget conscious, the prices for a commercial log tong look fairly reasonable.

SLAG.

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I agree with the suggestion to use tongs where the stonger the pulling force the tighter the tongs grip the log.  It's like old ice tongs that way.  Although, I'm dating myself by admitting that I even know what ice tongs are.

That said, you and your friend are dealing with some very heavy weights with water logged logs.  A 2.5' by 25' long log contains 122.65 cubic feet of wood, dried lodgepole pine weights 29 pounds per cubic foot, water weights 62.42 pounds per cubic foot, assuming 50% of a waterlogged log is made up of water and 50% wood you are looking at a total weight of about 7385 pounds per log, about 3.7 tons.  So, if you are making or buying tongs or hooks bigger is better.  You don't want to straighten anything out the hard way.  Also, make sure your chain or straps are heavy enough to take the strain of the pulling force.

Good luck.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

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When they are submerged, the water will do half of the lifting. Once near shore, hydraulic equipment is the way to go. Sounds like the kind of project my late father and I would, and have, volunteer for. Still have the log tongs, although a 30" log would be pushing there ability to grab. Too bad you're not closer.

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Put the word out that you are looking for a scuba diver. Have them put some chains around them for pulling them out.  How deep are they? A chain with a loop on one end will choke the trunk as it is pulled.

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I searched for log tongs, and I like what I see. The one that looks like it would do the trick would be a 24inch jaw. It starts with 1" stock, a simple enough design, just need to work on my 90°+ bends. It is a "drop forged alloy steel, tempered for strength where the force is applied", which tells me that I should harden and temper, though I was hoping mild steel would work *sigh* and isn't force applied along the whole tool? Alas more questions.

The max weight of the one I thought would work was 3000lbs at 15°, 3500 at 30°(I'm guessing this is the angle of the jaws when set in the log). This would most likely be the toughest use this tool would get. The logs are about 10-15ft under water, 30ft from shore. We only need to get them to shore, once they're on the ground he has the equipment to deal with them. We could probably just drop a set of the tongs over a smaller section instead of right at the base to make it easier (work smarter, not harder, right?). I think I'll make it more of a log skidder instead if a lifter, that way he can get a bit more use out of it than just this job. He's always pulling logs around with his quad/side by side/truck, this way he won't have to chain up each log when he does.

Now I know rebar gets a bad rap, but would the texture be beneficial for a set of log tongs? They are meant to grab things, and wouldn't more texture give more grip? I only ask because I can get to some 1in rebar locally vs a 2.5 hour 1 way trip to the closest, that I've found, steel supplier

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Something like this is what I've used to drag logs. These are small but they make much larger. They look pretty straightforward to make yourself but the stock sizes you'd need would be better suited to using a power hammer. About the rebar texture. No only the points grip the log.

2019_12_04_04_46_29.png.4ee98102cae33facdf7f656b4395383f.png

Pnut

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I second tie rod or sway bar and the need for a powerhammer! Even axle would work if you can do the heat treat right. 

Got any Mom&Pop Mechanic businesses near by?  My Mechanic offered me anything I wanted from his scrap pile for free after I gave him a bottle opener made from an old unplated wrench.

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Pnut, yup those are the style I was looking at, only bigger. That one looks like they just bent the teeth in, while the one I was looking at had been upset and then bent, which I will try to do to make it stronger.

Goose and TP,  tie rods or sway bar, hmm, I'll have to look for those when I head down to the local scrap yard, they have a few of my bottle openers already, so I think it will only cost me a 12 pack... Of donuts. I have a pretty good rapor with the guys there, my dad was a backyard mechanic and he frequented it often enough for the workers there to know me by my first name, that and it's a small town and I went to school with most of their kids. That was where I was going to source the 1 inch rebar as well so I'll just shop around while I'm there.

Thank you everyone for pointing me in the right direction, I will post progress if/when I remember to. Hopefully soon if the weather cooperates

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I would consider making a "Haberman" bend at the teeth.  That will add considerably to the assembly strength in use.  Might have been what you are calling the upset. Definitely recommend heat treating and at least medium carbon steel for this effort as well as a really beefy rivet and welded ring.

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I found this video of Brian Brazeal talking about the Haberman bend. There is even a iforgeiron mention around 5:15 in the vid.

Perhaps I missed something in the video, but he thins the outside of the bend to "exceed" it. Wouldn't that weaken the bend by having less material where bent?

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It puts the mass in the correct place to resist the load forces from that configuration of elbow.  By changing the moment of inertia to a higher value you better utilize the available mass of the section to handle the probable load vectors (think I-beams).  The primary bending load for a well set log tong is in the plane of the taller part of the section.

 

BTW here is a thread that might be worth review: 

 

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15 hours ago, Shabumi said:

Wouldn't that weaken the bend by having less material where bent?

correct. a right angle bend is stronger if it is upset to get extra material for the outside corner. And if you can do an upset right angle corner you can do any angle corner.

This demo is shows a very common esthetically pleasing detail.

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