lola Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Hi guys, I'm trying to design a layout for a blacksmith shop for industrial design students. To be honest I don't know much about blacksmithing or the machinery used.. But I have a general idea. The machinery or tools required are: metal guillotine, sand blaster, forge, grinding, metal saw, plasma cutter, MIG, TIG and spot welding. I will also need a Foundry (metal casting). I am currently doing research about the machinery and the security measurements. However any help from you guys would be welcomed, especially about the workflow in the shop or how to organize the equipments etc. P.S: I added the floor plan where the shop will be (The space in grey) Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Welcome aboard azzy. Have you read this yet? READ THIS FIRST It will help you get the best out of the forum. There are several layouts posted. You make no mention of the most important pieces of equipment. Anvils, vices, work tables etc. It's hard to give advice without knowing about them. Also if you edit your profile to show you location that would help too. Shop layouts are generally different in other parts of the world than in the U.S.A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Without a working knowledge of blacksmithing I would recommend you visit a school with such a program and talk to the instructors and see the layouts of the shops there and ask what would improve them. Incorporate the changes into the design of the classroom you want to create. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Welcome aboard Azzy, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many members live within visiting distance. You aren't asking about a "blacksmith shop" you're asking about establishing an industrial arts school. Probably equivalent to high school occupational heavy metal shop. The main difference in the classes I took in the late '60s and what you're asking about would be the "machine tools we had" and the mig, tig and plasma cutter you're proposing. Asking an open forum for what is very specialized information isn't a great idea. You really should contact an industrial school or company. Nothing you propose is new so there are only small details you'll need solutions for. Frankly some of the things you mention are hand tools, not necessary equipment nor requiring particularly marketable skills to operate. pnut's suggestion to start taking classes yourself is a very good one. How do you expect to organize and equip a program you know so little about? This isn't a situation that the theory of management CAN apply to. You really do need to know how to do the job to run it, let alone build a school and teach. I'm not trying to discourage you, America needs good trade schools, desperately but they have to be good schools. I seriously WANT good trade schools so I want you to do it right. Make sense? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Good Morning Mr./Miss/Mrs. Azzy, It is a good thing that you are naive enough to ask this question, on a Blacksmith forum. None of us know the safety criteria that your School Board and/or Government monitors require. We also don't know what the safety considerations are for your Workers Compensation Board. If you really have been taxed with the job of designing, YOU should be asking another similar school in your area. You put your right foot in, You take your right foot out, You put your right foot in and shake it all about....................... Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Your list of tools and tooling suggest a industrial complex rather than a school. There are no dimensions to your drawing so we have no idea of the area available to work with. JLPServices is currently building a blacksmithing teaching school that is about 40 x 60 feet. Does the building have electric service available to run the equipment? Have you checked to see if the building structure will even hold the weight of the equipment or support a power hammer? The noise and vibration of large power hammers can radiate a long distance unless properly isolated. How are you going to ventilate the forges? There is no mention of how many student are in any one class or how many student stations are needed for each trade. There was no mention of what size budget was available for your project. There are many important considerations before we can answer your questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 One example I can think of why designing something without a working knowledge of what's required is the numerous small towns around the US that tried to do something good by funding a municipal skatepark and then letting a concrete company design the skatepark with no idea of what a skate park needs. Lot's of wasted tax dollars, space,time, and disgruntled young people is usually what they end up with. Luckily I was involved in a skatepark being put in where I'm from and the city listened to the skateboarders and hired a contractor who specializes in building skateparks. It's a pleasure to ride there and people drive for hours to come and skate. The exact opposite happened when I lived in a town in Tennessee that hired a general contractor with no experience in the field nor would the city council listen to any skateboarders. They took bids like any other concrete job,hired the company who put in the lowest bid and they now have what is essentially an unskatable skatepark. Another one with the exact same story is about an hour and a half away from me now. It was actually voted the worst skatepark in America in Thrasher Magazine. Specialized trades/activities require a working knowledge of the field to set up a shop/space. We all really want you to succeed so my advice would be to take a course, talk to and visit in person as many instructors and practicing blacksmiths as possible so you can take notes on the setup of their classrooms and shops. Keep us posted and let us know if you have any specific questions. Good luck Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 lola what did you do with azzy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Boy, you are asking for a tall order of information with very little information as to funding, area overall and such. I am putting up a 40X60" shop and it would be large enough to do all you ask. But it would not be inexpensive. I see you all ready have a building but how big is the area? I knew a place that had a small cupola that used to pour cast iron. (still in building when it was sold. Missed it by that much..). More information is needed to give you a better answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 What will be the focus? What size projects are contemplated? When I teach a simple beginner's blacksmithing class I have no more than 2 people to an anvil and for small projects, at most 6 to a forge. However I bring more anvils than needed to allow for HEIGHT difference in the students. A 6'4 student and a 5'2 student cannot safely use an anvil the same height. Arc welding can't share the same space as other activities due to PPE requirements. Casting needs safety requirements of it's own. Like NO DISTRACTIONS! For a very nice smithing school set up may I commend to you Robb Gunther's school in Moriarty NM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Remember to always have the anvil, forge and post vise set up to work in a triangular pattern. It's really more efficient to have each of those important tools a step or two away from each other. I'd think several stations set-up like that for students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 the person never came back did they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Depends a bit on what they will be making. 1 step is the desiderata for small stuff but try swinging a 10' stick of metal around in that triangle. Also will they be sharing the forge or other equipment? I like to spread out the anvils a bit so we don't have turbulent flow with hot steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Very true Thomas! I'm thinking since they are students, they will be learning with small stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 My requirements for a student to pass my class: 1: They listen/watch and follow instructions. 2: They are safe around other people with hot steel. 3: They are safe around themselves with hot steel. If they pass these three criteria they are welcome to continue forging with my equipment on more advanced projects. I also tell them that aesthetics are not part of the criteria; their S hook may engender projectile vomiting in passersby when they hold it up for display; but if they passed those 3 they're good to go on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 I am dealing with this now, part of why I have been gone so long. Finally (12 years!!! later) have gotten the state of NC to approve Wrought Metals I & II into the Welding Technology curriculum. Sooooo, now, all I have to do is get an area at the community college set aside & enclosed, wired for 120/240/480V, compressed airlines for power hammers & etc, secure funding for all $100K of tools, write 2 semesters of course outlines with tests and projects, pick a textbook... and still teach a full load of regular welding classes while maintaining some semblance of a life. Wish me luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 More than luck I wish you a pleasant insanity! There are a number of old books for such courses out there; I have one "Farm Shop Practice" that has a smithing section for Ag smithing; Also "Elementary forge practice; a text-book for technical and vocational schools", Stanford University, Cal. Stanford university press, 1917. They may have to be dumbed down; but they could be a source of ideas! (and the EFP should be out of copyright so you could copy diagrams from it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Elementary forge practice is widely available in PDF. There's some COSIRA PDF's such as The blacksmiths craft available also that may be useful as a teaching aid. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 The British rural arts counsel ones "The Blacksmiths craft "(Cosira series) are stellar books with very teachable content without the complexity of disyhering the information. Many of the earlier and even some of the later books on the subject leave information out as common knowledge or as a way to entice schooling with the writer of said books. Plain and ornamental forging (1916) is another decent one. One other problem I have seen is the wrought iron vs mild steel equation. Wrought iron practically will weld with little more than spit, but mild steel needs more care to weld well. (IE Good clean job) Something earlier books dont account for. Some of the information for sure can be elaborated on as far as formulas and such.. Sq to straight taper. 2X length, sq to full square taper 3X length, etc, etc. blacksmith shop practice.pdf blacksmiths manual.pdf blacksmithscraft.pdf BLACKSMITHS-MANUAL-ILLUSTRATED.pdf Plain_and_Ornamental_Forging.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 j. l. p., The COSIRA books and many others are available at this site, bamsite.org/books/books.html Most are pdf files, SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 Yup or one could just open or download the pdfs attached to my post. These are 5 very good ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 Thank you all for the input. I am the NCABANA chapter librarian, and have more than a passing familiarity with most of those titles. And a short ton of others as well. And while I would love to find a simple, straightforward, step-by-step, well-illustrated text or two currently in print so as to avoid copyright problems by just having it in the school bookstore and available for purchase with scholarship funds, so far it has not happened. Sigh. I may have to write my own, starting with a bunch of projects in a three ring binder. I have a file drawer full of ideas to organize during the dreary winter months, since my shop is in "pleine air" at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 John if the books are for sale at the school and purchased legally by the school, used in class there is no copyright infringement My understanding is, name changes, or not purchased without express consent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 Trying to convey the state of the blacksmithing/fabrication art and craft here and now, as it applies to money-making endeavours and not hobbys, does not come easily with archaic texts. It is like trying to teach students how to work on modern computer chipped, fuel-injected, anti-lock brake system cars with a Chilton manual for a Model T. Again, I am looking for ***one book*** that covers everything that goes on in a production shop, conveyed in a modern, concise text and illustrations. And it does not seem to exist, although many sources have useful projects, chapters or passages. Think of it akin to video editing. It seems to take about 10-12 hours of research and amalgamation from many sources to produce one hour of classroom instruction. I need up to 64 total hours text/video/powerpoint for the 2 hour/day lecture part, before heading into the shop for another 6 hours. Students are expected to show up with zero knowledge, and exit the program with enough useful abilities to be hired as an entry level worker in a production facility. (You scoff. Obviously, you are not familiar with the expectations of modern academia!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 John McP, Has written, " … Students are expected to show up with zero knowledge, and exit the program with enough useful abilities to be hired as an entry level worker in a production facility. (You scoff. Obviously, you are not familiar with the expectations of modern academia!). " I scoff. It sounds like "Neolithic brain surgery in just one semester!" A little over ambitious? Regards, SLAG. p. s. The original poster has not returned to this thread since he posted. Did we scare him off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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