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I Forge Iron

Take a guess at the makeup of this anvil?


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Hello all, it's my first time posting on this site, but I've been a lurker around here for a bit.  I've always wanted to get into blacksmithing, and now that I'm out of college and have a job it makes the whole prospect a bit more feasible for me.  I recently became aware of an auction going on this coming Saturday that appears to have a rather nice anvil for sale.  I asked the seller if he was able to find a name on it, but so far all I have to go on are these four pictures.  The auction is a bit of a drive from where I live, so I am trying to determine if this anvil is forged or cast iron before making the trek.  I was wondering if anyone with more experience can spot anything that may give a clue as to its type?  Any thoughts or input are always appreciated!

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Those edges look sharp even. If you do go to the auction make sure you take a ball bearing to test the rebound. I'd be suspicious until I had reason not to be but that's just how I am. Good luck, and I hope it's a good deal.

Pnut

 

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Glad you delurked good to see you posting. I had to look a few times but that has to be a shadow or something pattern to make it look like the anvil has sagging skin.

It's too grainy to see much. She's seen some use though most of the wear is at the hardy hole sort of like small square stock was being bent in it. One edge has been radiused nicely and I can see very little edge damage. It looks like it sat in a garden too many years.

In general it's a gracile anvil, long thin heel and thin waist similar to my Soderfors. I don't see any obvious forge marks so if I had to guess from these pics I'd say it's cast. It isn't cast iron though, I'd put a few bucks on that, the damage to the hardy hole doesn't look like iron, it looks like steel. 

The horn is still sharp and iron anvils tend to have blunt horns or they break under use.

Were I looking for an anvil I'd give serious thought to making the drive unless it's crazy far say >4 hrs one way.

Let us know what you do and find out. If you go take a ball bearing with you and give it a rebound test. Brush as much crud off it as you can, drop the bearing and estimate how far back it bounces as a %. This is just an eyeball test for now and it's going to bounce dead because of the rust and dirt but it's an indication. You might be better off using a SMALL ball pein hammer and tapping a pattern across the face listening for sudden changes in tone. It'll sound pretty dead for the dirt and rust but sudden tone changes will tell the story. Expect rebound and tone to change gradually as you work from the center towards the heel, the thinner section will have a lower rebound and different tone.

Frosty The Lucky.

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2 hours ago, Frosty said:

. One edge has been radiused nicely

Do you mean the edge by the horn on the pritchel hole side? I thought that was a factory feature. The hardy definitely has some wear. You've seen more anvils than I have so I defer to your experience and I'm looking at it on a small phone. I definitely would take a ball bearing and test rebound. Oh yeah the weird coating I think is years of dust,rust, and cobwebs. It does look saggy. 

Pnut

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It looks to have been stored in an unheated shed in an area damp enough to get considerable condensation on it.  The basic shape looks like a good one though.  The ring and rebound tests would tell you though.

I stopped going to auctions for anvils as they tended to run beyond my means and waste a day to boot.  I had much more luck using the TPAAAT.

However I did buy a 134# HB in very similar condition---condensation pitting---at an auction.  It was a commercial business auction---HVAC company---held on a holiday weekend so that cut down the antique dealers and random people (business auction); as well as the business people (holiday weekend).

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With that thin heel I would guess it is a Trenton.

If that auction is advertised well it will go for big money, but exceptions do happen. It all depends on who shows up. Watch out for sales tax and buyer's premiums that will boost the price over what your final bid is.

And you do realize that everyone here who is near you will now be on the lookout for that auction.... :D

Good luck!

 

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My guess would be either Trenton or Arm & Hammer.

Would be nice to see the bottom surface to help narrow down the brand, but being secured to the stump will prevent that. Best bet is to check the side for brand markings or look at the front foot edge for stamped serial numbers. 

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I can't say much more than the people above me, i'd say it looks like a trenton but you can't know for sure if you don't find any markings. If she goes for the right price and the rebound is good than you will have an anvil that i'll last generations if you don't abuse it. Good luck on your journey in this amazing craft!:D

Damian Stil

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I am a part time auctioneer so I never view a day at an auction as a wasted day. Do be aware of buyer premium many are as high as 10% or more. I do not work for or with houses that charge that. Bid hard and fast until you reach your limit. You may intimidate a buyer or two. I have never believed that stalling between bids gets you anywhere. Just my opinion. Good luck. 

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Yes, bidding at an auction is a game of wits, and has some strategy to it.  Here are some methods I have seen, and some I have used to be a successful bidder.

Numero uno!! Set a price limit before bidding - figure any extras like premiums, and taxes into that amount and lower bid accordingly. Do not get caught up in a bidding war from auction fever.

Pay attention to who is bidding, some less than reputable auctioneers use shills to up the price. Positioning yourself properly in the crowd can help spot the bidders.

Be careful who you talk to, and talk around, but that does not mean don't listen to what others may be saying.

Now, bidding styles;

Some auctioneers start high, then keep dropping the bid until someone jumps in. Many times on an item like this the price will go right back up to the starting point in a hurry. I have hit the starting bid right away on items to let the lowballers know I was serious, and they don't even jump in. You may not pay the lowest it might have gone for, but you will get it in your price range. This is where gaging the crowd comes in. How many are hanging around and eyeballing the anvil? 1, or a dozen? Do they look like they can drop how much you can, or way more than you?

Sometimes I have yelled out a bid quite a bit higher than the auctioneer is asking for to get it going. This has usually been when the auctioneer is starting low on a popular item. They may be asking for $50, $100 etc, and I would just yell out $400 as an example. Many times it goes well past my initial bid, sometimes I get it at that bid, but it shows you are serious, and it also gets things moving along.

I won my 1967 M-715 at a DRMO auction by being the first paddle up, and just holding it up the whole time, never dropping it down. I wore out three competitors. The final bid was to me for $1,000, and that was my limit. Fortunately, they dropped out, as one more hit and it would have been theirs. My heart was beating a hundred miles an hour. 

Some wait for the second going (going once, going twice, all in all done? SOLD!) before hitting it again. When I have someone doing this I hit it back as fast as I can. Just holding the paddle up constantly also helps to keep someone else from jumping in at your limit if you lag. You know what your limit is, so don't be afraid to run it up to it.

Don't dilly dally. Some auctioneers are fast to close , and quick with the gavel if they have a lot of items to work through. Some will close fast if it is a friend bidding, so be fast on paddle.

Pay attention to what lot is being sold! Don't be the doofuss that bids on the wrong item. Also some auctioneers will go out of order. I have seen this a few times. They go until a certain time, then jump to the big ticket items that most came for. Don't miss a purchase because you were munching on a hot dog, or in the can. Also make sure the auctioneer, or minions actually see you. This gets important if your competitor is inline with you. Don't be afraid to ask what bidder number is the high bid if they do not say. I have been to a ton of auctions, some run very well, others no so well. It is up to you to pay attention as to what is going on. 

I have taken lunches, and drinks to big auctions. Stay hydrated.

Be careful of round robin bidding. This is when there are three or more bidding on the same item and the auctioneer is going in an order. Be figuring out what it will be when they get to you, and if it will put you over your limit. If so, you can always just jump the bid to your limit and hope for the best.

Multiple like items. I was at an auction where I wanted a welder. It was a big shop with a line of welders, many were the same make and model. This is where you need to pay attention. The Millers and Lincolns were going high, but when they got to the Linde UCC-305's hardly anyone bid. I dropped out and let the guy in front of me win the bid at $250 as I guessed he would not want all three at that same price. He picked the one he wanted that had a few hundred feet of lead draped over it, and I was ready with my paddle when they asked if anyone else wanted one at that price...bam! I chose the one with the radiator and ended up with an absolute fantastic TIG welder for a great price. The high bidder ended up buying the last one for $140 for parts.  Some auctioneers will make you choose in numerical order, others let you pick and choose. Pay attention!  I have seen this go may ways. I have seen the high bidder take all of them at the price he bid, and I have seen the first one go high, and the last one go dirt cheap after everyone got one.  This is where gaging the crowd comes in, and seeing who is bidding on what. 15 items and 10 active bidders? May be worth just hanging out and see what the last ones go for instead of just running the price up. Everyone gets a good deal then.

I love a good auction, and miss going to the DRMO's at the local military bases. Unfortunately they have all gone online now. I knew who the scrap dealers were, the kitchen equipment guys, medical equipment purchasers, etc.. Most of my machine shop equipment came from one auctioneer, one of the best I have ever had the pleasure to bid with, Very well run operation.

Good luck with the anvil!

 

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All auctioneers that I know begin with what we call the first ask. It is what they deem to be the highest amount it could bring and work down till they find money  then go from there. If the first ask is in your range go ahead and fire. Some auctioneers are not experts on everything. 

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Really appreciate the help and advice everyone, including the auction advice (I have 0 experience).  I think I will go and give it a shot.  I'll see if the wife wants to go and we can make a day of it.  "Its a...uhhh... antique auction honey" ;)  At the very least it will be good experience and help me get a feel for what these things go for.  This is an estate auction in a smaller town, so I'm hoping that helps with the crowds.   From what I looked into on Trenton anvils, it does bear a very striking resemblance.  In this video I found his Trenton also has the rounded edge and even the "saggy" appearance, which looks to be due to rust.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEcBE6EOdgg  If you don't mind my asking, what would you guys say a fair price for an anvil like this might be (assuming it is a Trenton) ?  I realize there are a lot of variables that play into it, I'm more just trying to establish a rough base line.  From the research I've done I think I may have a rough idea.  

 

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One other bit of auction advice:  It seems that whenever I go to an auction for a particular item it is always put up towards the end of the day.  I can get pretty bored sitting through the household goods, costume jewelry, china, "smalls", manure spreaders and tractors at farm auctions.  So, I usually take a book to fill the time until they are getting close to my target.  That said, you still have to pay a certain amount of attention to what is going on around you because they can sometimes go out of order or there can be a real bargain pop up.  Also, beware that they may have two or more auctioneers working at the same time.  Finally, you need to consider how you are going to get whatever you buy home.  You can sometimes get auction employees help you load or just as a passer by to help you lift something into you vehicle.

I agree with Thomas on prices but I think I would choke on $6/pound.  It used to be that $1/pound was a fair price for a used anvil in decent condition and those of us who recall those days have a hard time reconciling the current fair market value with our memories.  In 1978 I paid $25 at an auction in Riverton, WY for a 100 pound Vulcan anvil and that has skewed my sensibilities for the last 40+ years.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

PS  DO NOT get caught up in a bidding fever.  Set the amount you are willing/able to pay and if it goes for more than that walk away happy that you had a fun day out.  Remember, that once it goes over your limit it will take a minimum of two bid intervals for you to get it, e.g. if your limit is $100 and the bids have been going up by $10 intervals and you have bid your maximum of $100 and someone bids $110 it will take a bid of $120 to get it back to you, 20% over your limit.  Some auctioneers will allow fractional bids, some not.  In this case, you might call out a bid of $115 (or make a hand gesture to indicate a half step bid.  The gestures seem to be particular to a particular auctioneer or auction house.  Ask when you get your bidding number.)

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The camping chair is a good idea.  That price range was about what I was thinking, I'll stick to my max and be prepared to walk.  I'll let you guys know how things turn out.  While the seller was unable to find any markings (not sure how hard he tried or if he tried brushing away any rust)  he did tell me that his dad got it about 25 years ago from a blacksmith shop in Alaska of all places.  It had been used by the guy he bought it from, but after getting it home and pouring a pad for it in the shed, he never ended up using it.  There is another anvil for sale at the same auction that has some dents on the surface, as well as some ASOs, so I'm guessing those ended up being his general use anvils.

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It looks very good to me. Good luck and I hope you get it and at a good price. Don't let yourself get gouged though. I paid $7.70 (USD)a lb. for a new cast steel anvil and that was the second best price I could find on it. The best priced one was a company that I'd never head of and their website felt kind of off to me. Anyway, hope this helps give you an idea of new verses used prices. That's why I decided to just get a new one 

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Just wanted to give you guys an update.  I ended up getting it for a little over 300.   That said, I did take a bit of a gamble.... When looking at it I noticed two weld marks under the horn and under the heal.  the sides are smooth, with no brand marking, but i believe that is because they were ground smooth and uniform at some point.  From the research I tried to do on the spot at the auction, I read that after a certain time period Trentons were actually made in two halves and then ark welded together at the factory.  The video link in my second comment in this thread also shows the guys anvil having similar weld marks to mine.  I figured there are two possibilities. 

A: The anvil really did crack in half at some point post factory and was welded back together.  I'm assuming it would have been due to being dropped, as the surface is pristine. There aren't any major dents or dings anywhere on the anvil that would support this.   

B:  The weld marks are from the factory and they were rough enough on the sides that it annoyed whoever owned it enough to grind them flat (or this was done at the factory for cleanup ). 

I am hoping it is the later.  When my steel ball bearing arrives I will do the bounce test.  I also did a better ring test after I got it home:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9vrjKWyCkU   I did manage to locate the serial numbers  it is 150 lbs and #222487

What are your thoughts?  Did I jump the gun or get an ok deal?  Either way I had a good time at the auction, quite an adrenaline rush.

PS  The hardy hole has a piece of square tubing in it to act as a reducer.  Once I knock it out the edges are crisp on it as well.

 

 

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Very nice at very worst you have a very nice ASO for 2.00 a lb.  At best you have a great anvil at way under value. Either way unless no one eats for a week or the mortgage isn’t met. There is little or nothing lost. I was rooting for you. Good job. 

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You still have the sweet spot even if the heel and horn fall off. I'd be happy to have it. Use it in good health and good cheer.

Pnut

You don't have to worry about mounting it either, just getting it to the right height for you.

Edited by pnut
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