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On 9/9/2019 at 2:43 PM, Buzzkill said:

At the risk of getting too philosophical and/or political...

Let's continue this conversation by promising NOT to mock one another's beliefs.

While I agree that this attitude has not prevailed universally (for then we would call this place 'Paradise'. 'Heaven on Earth', 'The Garden of Eden', 'Nirvana', etc.), there have been, and continue to be, a number of communities who have done their best to live up to these ideals.

On 9/9/2019 at 2:43 PM, Buzzkill said:

As to the next part if a man takes ONLY what he needs then it is impossible to give something back without himself becoming needy.

The point to the story is, if everyone took only what they needed, then there would be no needy to provide for.

 

On 9/9/2019 at 2:43 PM, Buzzkill said:

From the beginning of recorded history to present day there has never been a better time to be alive as a human than today if quality of life, length of life, creature comforts, and time available to pursue activities not related to survival are any indication

You do realize, this is a matter of perspective, right?  I'd be willing to wager you could find plenty of folks on this planet who would disagree

 

On 9/9/2019 at 10:52 PM, George N. M. said:

ALL innovation was to get more

As far as collecting anvils, cars, trinkets, etc.,   I agree 100% that people should be free to choose how to live and let live. 

I'm not judging anyone's actions or motivations.

That's not my job.   

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I'm not trying to pick a fight.  I gave specific categories to use as a measure.  These are not a matter of opinion or belief.  For the most part they are simply empirical facts easily verified by historical documentation.

1 hour ago, billyO said:

I'd be willing to wager you could find plenty of folks on this planet who would disagree 

Yes, and they would be demonstrably wrong based on recorded data rather than an impression, feeling, belief, or folklore.  Think of it this way: across the world in general if you had to make a judgment call would you say that the vast majority of people are better off or worse off than their grandparents?  Now, I understand there are potentially a lot of variables to take into account and we could nitpick until the end of time without agreeing on specific criteria to use and how to assign value to each of those criteria.  However we do not need that level of detail here.  Even if your answer is "worse off" which I would find surprising but possible, go back a couple more generations.   I think you will have a hard time convincing yourself that across the world in general things are worse overall now for most individuals than they were even 100 years ago. The further back you go to make a comparison the harder that should become unless a short life span far more susceptible to fatal incidents or sickness with far more time required to survive and less comfort available somehow makes one "better off."

One could argue about "quality of life" being subjective, but length of life, availability of creature comforts, and time to pursue activities not related to survival are much less subjective. No matter how much I may want to believe that 2+2 = 6, it simply does not. Of course one can find outlying exceptions to nearly every generalized statement ever made.  However, that does not negate an over-arching truth or trend. Everyone is entitled to his own beliefs, but none of us are entitled to change historical facts to match our belief systems - and certainly not without contending with a dissenting voice.

1 hour ago, billyO said:

The point to the story is, if everyone took only what they needed, then there would be no needy to provide for.

On the contrary, that would make nearly everyone needy at some point.  If you buy only the food you need to eat today, what happens when you are hurt, the weather prevents you from going to get more food, or something happens to the people or place where you get your food?

Again, the uncertainty of tomorrow makes it necessary to build in some cushion for the future which requires taking more than needed today.  I, for one, would consider it irresponsible (and possibly even immoral) to fail to store some amount of excess for my family against the inevitable fluctuations in fortune the future will hold.  Another significant issue with the concept is the very definition of "need."  Does that just include what is necessary to survive the day?  What about the week, the month, or the year?  Does "need" refer purely to survival, or does it include some standard of living beyond survival? How do you determine what that level of lifestyle happens to be?  Is it the same for everyone or do some require a different standard of living than others? Who determines when the line between need and desire has been crossed?  Me?  You?  Someone else?  Do you rely on each individual to correctly asses his needs and take accordingly?  What do you do with the person who claims he needs everything he is taking, but in the eyes of those nearby he is clearly taking far more than needed?

The point is that the concept sounds simple and sound enough, and yes it is seductive, but upon examination it's far more complex and less likely to produce the desired outcome.

Taking it back to blacksmithing, let's use JLP services as an example (sorry for dragging you into this Jennifer).  She collected anvils over a period of years with the notion that eventually she would like to build her own training area and teach students.  She didn't *need* all those anvils for personal use, but now that her shop is underway she would soon find it hard to teach multiple students simultaneously without those tools.  If she hadn't put aside some excess she probably wouldn't have been able to purchase the anvils or build the shop that will now potentially help many other people learn this craft.  Taking more than needed didn't necessarily deprive anyone else of anything.  In fact it may have improved the life of one or more people who no longer needed an anvil.  This act of taking more than needed today and preparing for tomorrow, regardless of how vague the plans were when the anvils were purchased, potentially improves everyone's life who was, is, or will be involved in the story without negatively affecting anyone else.

This probably isn't the best place for discussing the main area of contention we have here, and I've found that people rarely change their minds based on a discussion online with a stranger.  I'm happy to discuss it more here or elsewhere if you wish, and I'm also happy to agree to disagree and leave it where it sits if you prefer.  Either way, my intention was never to cause offense and I hope I have not done so.

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No problem involving me..    Buzzkill you are correct. I would not have been able to buy all the anvils I have now to start school.   Nor the vises or the blowers. 

Historically, Anvils, vises and blowers have pretty much always been bought from an outside source or vendor.. with this Each anvil was there exactly at the time I was supposed to buy it. 

IN other words..   It was there exactly at the moment I had funds, time and ability both to purchase and move them.  There is no such thing as coincidence. 

1 anvil come when  a local farrier school closed,  Another from when I was still a full time smith as the sledge anvil. the 150 lbs anvil was for the demonstration equipment.   Anyway the only anvils that I really went out of the way to get was the 100bls vanadium which was 100miles up in Maine and the 368HB which was out near Pittsburg PA and the 204 HB which is in decent shape but well worn which was also in PA and is a great schooling anvil. 

Each anvil seemed to fill a void at the time and each leading to the school.  I passed up on maybe 10 or 12 anvils when I retired from smithing with the thought that I had enough for the school and if it ever did or did not happen the outcome could go either way with selling or not. 

Last few really seemed to jump out to me. With very little on my part other than supplying the funding. 

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I just recently read a book on the Taos NM communes.  Seemed like the average lifespan of a commune was 2 years; and living conditions were not to my taste. Some of the locals had to teach some places that they should NOT defecate into the communal water supply!

There was a number of communes in Historical America---the Shakers; New Harmony; even some of the original colony's start up were attempts.---Not much long term success with such lifestyles even with Russia and China.

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Communal living sounds great until you add in the people. 

Pnut

 

 

 

 

 

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You sir are absolutely correct & the hippies from the 60’s found this out .

Not advocating for the other extreme but there is a whole lot of ground between those two points for folks to enjoy. :D

I only have 4 Anvils.... 

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GB, I would like to find the happy medium. Somewhere in the middle seems like a place I'd want to live.  Unfortunately I've yet to discover this place. I guess you have to create the world you want to live in. I think that's was the goal of the counterculture in the sixties. Sadly it wasn't successful, but that's not a reason to stop striving for something better.  

Pnut

I have a thirty inch piece of RR track and a 6x5x2 in. piece of plate with a rod welded to it to make a stump anvil. I'm looking for an anvil but not very hard as I would have to leave it outside in the woods behind my apt. building. If I found a good deal I'd be happy to keep it in my apartment until I have somewhere to set it up that it's not likely to be stolen.

Edited by pnut

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Well, I'm kinda coming from the "duck" philosophy.

When someone brings up religion on a blacksmith site,, its time to duck and run!  ;)

Second, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, stand up with pride and call it a duck. It doesnt matter what the reason is its a duck, its still just a danged ole duck.

Wow, spell check nearly got me on that last duck. If I hadnt of caught it I'd have been banned for sure!  :)

I have 4 anvils. Two 124# PW, a 184# Trenton, and a 255#PW. I've always been set up for a two man shop and two portables.

I have always been a working smith and taught on occasions, not the other way around. I've known some great smiths of both kinds. Some of both kinds were collectors.

And I've certainly felt that rush that comes from stumbling on, or tracking down that next great find!

I've also felt just what George brought up and felt blessed that I wasnt learning for an anvil or whatever. 

Different strokes for different folks.  ;)

 

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At IFI when someone brings up religion we remove that post and may remove the offending poster as well depending on how far it goes.

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Tho the “prayers” section is a dang good indicator that all faiths are respected here, just that to many fights (or worse) get started over it. Glenn and co have the right of it. 

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On 9/10/2019 at 6:17 PM, Chris The Curious said:

.............."So now what?"  Not going to be easy to get rid of 40+ years of all my gatherings of wood working tools and equipment.  She's a painter and has no earthly idea how to dispose of any of this.  

Chris, and any others of you who may be concerned as how to liquidate yourselves of unwanted assets, I would love to encourage you to consider the auction method of marketing. Not only are auctions a great way to buy, but they are a great way to sell. Bringing competitive bidders together ensures you will always receive the best price that a marketplace can support, why sell something for $500 when someone else may be willing to pay more. Feel free to send me a PM if you would like more information on the topic. (This is not intended as solicitation, but would like my friends on IFI to be informed.)

Another idea is to donate your items. I know a great place that accepts all sorts of Blacksmithing items...

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Anyone with excess blacksmithing materials if welcome and encouraged to post them in the Tailgating / buy / sell section on IForgeIron. That tool can then go to a new home where it be put to use, and open up a little shop space in your shop. 

 

We may need to add a category to the section for reserve bid and then let others post with a higher offer. Run it for a undisclosed period of time so there is no last second bids trying to squeeze in under the wire.  If you want it bid early and often.  

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