J.L.S

Japanese tool used to grind tools on stones

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15 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

Do you have something showing the peening technique?  I'd be interested to see it.  

There's a Fine Woodworking article from 1981, but it's behind their paywall: https://www.finewoodworking.com/1981/08/01/japanese-blades

12 hours ago, J.Leon_Szesny said:

the process of using a wooden board to grind japanese knives on these huge electric wet grinding wheels

Not Japanese, but here's a video of old-school knife grinders in Sheffield using backing boards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfXYBheE_Fs

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JHCC,

Thanks for the link, even the little bit that was in the synapses mentioned the peening.

I did find this free article that seems to explain it a bit more.  

The same site has an article demonstrating what I was talking about with the tapered grind on the flat back.

 

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Synopsis.

Good articles, but I still don't understand why you keep saying "tapered". The shiny areas on the back of the blade in those articles are all in one plane surrounding the hollow ura, not tapers/bevels on the edges of the back:

613B8843-6751-4EB5-8DCA-853D6468FBC1.jpeg

27 minutes ago, rockstar.esq said:

synapses

Synopsis.

 

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JHCC,

Auto-correct got me on synopsis, but thank you for correcting the record.

On a Western plane (or chisel) the entirety of the non-bevel side is laid completely flat on the stone, and the entire surface is ground.  Everything from tip to tail on that side is ground in a single plane.  

In contrast, the Japanese plane iron has two ground faces, both of which are at different angles than the main body of the iron which is also a wedge in lengthwise cross section.  The bevel is the more acute angle which you drew on the right.  What I'm calling the taper, is the more obtuse angle ground on the opposing side which you drew on the left .

Here's my own sketch including a cross section attempting to label what I'm talking about.  Please note that the taper is not in the same plane as the rest of the iron on that side.  

1.thumb.jpg.a78431493256bb894453bdda95fef6e7.jpg

One of the things this discussion has brought to light for me was that I was assuming that the hollow was perfectly formed.  If that hollow was perfectly consistent, the progressive grinding on the bevel and taper would never lead to a situation where the edge wasn't perfectly straight.  Now I see that the peening is necessary whenever the progressive grinding encounters a point where the hollow was cut deeper than the preceding area.  I can also see that it's probably easier to hog that hollow past the edge, then peen the gap closed afterwards when the plane is first being made.  That would dramatically reduce the rough grinding on the hardened steel which in turn, would make the plane iron cheaper to make.

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Okay, I see what you're saying; thanks for the clarification. I am more familiar with Japanese chisels, which are flattened butt-to-tip (apart from the ura, of course) and generally don't have the taper you show in your sketch.

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JHCC, no problem at all.  Thank you for the insights about peening Japanese plane irons.

It's really interesting how nuanced and complex these tools are for something that looks like a wedge of steel stuck in a block of wood!

 

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9 hours ago, J.Leon_Szesny said:

I do speak in an expressive flavorful lighthearted manner, sorry)

No you don't. You speak like this is a jr high cafeteria, not an adult gathering. "well, that's like, your own opinion man..dude bro?" Is openly disrespect, your words drip scorn and disdain.

"I didn't insult or intentionally disrespect people and I did say "thank you" to people." This is probably true and this lack of social skill isn't really your fault, it's a cultural aspect of kids who have their heads stuck up their cell phones. The current edu. system is no help either, they seem more interested in socializing students than teaching them. 

In the adult world saying "thank you" in the context you used it is INSULT DIRECT  that you don't know that should tell you SOMETHING. If not then you're in for a tough life. 

In the real world you'd be sitting in classes about your attitude or looking for a job. Well unless you made drinks an espresso hut away from the window where interacting with the public was nil. 

I don't think you're stupid nor a lost cause or I would've stopped engaging you at all after your first reply. You're just poorly socialized to the adult world.

If you wish to sit at the adult table then act like one. Iforge Iron doesn't have to behave in a manner YOU find acceptable nor do the members have to "understand" YOU. The opposite is true, it's YOU that needs to behave like an adult. IFI has a pretty simple way of adjusting to folk who won't or can't. 

 

 

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frosty
I think you might have misunderstood me
could we please discuss this over pm's and not clutter up the thread further with any of our arguments?
this is getting a bit heated and...personal.

I accidentally wrote in the quote and don't know how to delete the box

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

 

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Nope. Trying to justify inappropriate behavior by explaining how WE don't understand isn't going to work. That's for the kid's table. It is NOT our behavior that's socially askew.

We understand you perfectly, it's your behavior that is tiresome to the point of not needing but one or two complaints to admin to get yourself moderated. 

The back chatter so far is that you're probably an okay guy, salvageable we hope. Just a product of a pretty poor acculturation. YOU aren't a victim, you are the perpetrator. We all go off the rails or get out of line, someone on the forum says so and we admit fault and get on with it. There isn't a lot of patience for repeated bad behavior. 

I'd really rather you pull your head out and assimilate with the forum, your pursuit is fascinating. I'm very much into tools and how they're used though I may never. Unfortunately you aren't that interesting nor informative a guy though I'm sure you know quite a few research initiation point bits. 

While this isn't a bladesmithing forum we have a number of MASTER bladesmith members, a number of published authors and in numerous genre. Ask yourself this. Why aren't they talking to you?

I think I've said all I need or want to. I do, really hope you can pull your head out and join the club but I'm not going to feel guilt if you choose not to.

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This discussion has been brought to the attention of the admins and mods. Please keep it civil and respectful.

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2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Nope. Trying to justify inappropriate behavior by explaining how WE don't understand isn't going to work.

I think I've said all I need or want to. I do, really hope you can pull your head out and join the club but I'm not going to feel guilt if you choose not to.

I was explaining "myself" so you could see that I really never meant to insult or offend anyone here.

you just cleanly wrote a whole page explaining politely how I "deserve to be insulted" while actively complimenting, insulting me and making assumptions about me as a person you can't possibly fairly make.  
I don't even know how to respond to that, Im not even mad about this.
I just feel sad.

 one last time, im sorry if I offended anyone in the way I was speaking. it was never my intention.

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In my working life, I frequently encounter some pretty significant generational differences in communication.  They existed when I was younger as well, but back then, the only way to communicate via text was to write a letter.

At the risk of stating the obvious here, I think it's important to point out that if you strike the wrong tone in a face to face conversation, you get immediate feedback.  Generally speaking, people of my generation were used to that, so they tended to word their letters very carefully so as to avoid misunderstandings.  If you got yourself into a mess via letter, you knew you had to make your response extra worthwhile to expect any reply.

Social media, texting,  and forums are typically arranged so that the whole exchange from beginning to end is constantly visible.  The response to any given predecessor doesn't necessarily have to restate the context of what they're communicating.  In settings with a large audience, the responses might be largely oriented towards playing to the crowd.  The emphasis is on being quick, witty, and temporary.  Nobody's tries to write a literary masterpiece, or for that matter, like they're writing to a friend.

That crowd effect often leads to dog-piles on one party or the other.  Justice, truth, and intentions are irrelevant to the mob.  Everything hinges on defending a perceived victim.  Paradoxically, the only time that social media get's "personal" for an individual, is when they're being attacked.  There's quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the greatest "bullies" online, present themselves as the victim.  They don't have to present concrete evidence of abuse, they simply equate a position they oppose with malicious intent.  Typically, that's all the mob requires.  

Again, people of my generation witness all of this, and see how there's a very significant gap between stated intentions and actual outcomes.  The writer's sincerity gets called into question.  This is where the "pidgin English" of texting really bites everyone in the backside.  Vital context for understanding is missing.  Personal appeals in the form of polite language often don't exist until apologies, so the reader is free to interpret every statement before that as a "command narrative".  

Not for nothing, I hope that anybody reading this will go back to the beginning of this thread and read every exchange between JHCC and myself.  It took us a while to get on the same page, but there wasn't an unkind word in the whole thing.  Speaking for myself, JHCC challenged what I thought I knew, and introduced me to some new ideas.  I'm grateful to JHCC for making that effort with me.  It's my opinion that exchanges like that are the entire point of forums like IFI.

 

 

 

 

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It's worth pointing out that rockstar.esq also pointed out some details to me that I wasn't aware of before. Good communication is a two-way street.

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Thank you John, Rockstar: Your observations are of great value, being trained professionals in communication skills. 

Reading Rockstar's last post brings to mind a couple points I don't recall seeing but are at the heart of good communications skills. A fundamental of communications I'm using written for the purposes of discussion but it applies to all communications.

It is thus: A reader can NOT know what the writer thinks or means. The ONLY thing possible to know is, what is said

Perception is everything, if you can't get your idea across you're doing it wrong. Repeating yourself in longer sentences makes things worse. The PERCEPTION becomes of excuses and attempted misdirection. Once the Perception includes misdirection trust degrades. This effect isn't additive it's geometric. Eg. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Nobody wants to feel a fool so once deception is perceived whether that is the intent or not, the reader starts doubting EVERYTHING the writer says and that's usually all she wrote.

From the outside defensive behavior typically indicates the person has something to hide and so is possibly dishonest. Repeat the impression and it becomes the writer's perceived nature. 

Face to face or spoken conversations provide cues to the speaker's meaning and intent that can't be masked. Interrogators don't go to school to learn how to beat a confession out of people they learn psychology and how to read "tells." Psychology to know what and how to push the desired buttons, how to read the responses and adjust for the next button. 

Humans or heck your dog or horse don't need to go to college, reading cues is reflexive instinct, it's an evolved survival strategy. 

Without the physical and aural cues a writer has to be as careful as possible to convey what they want to get across. For example, the reader doesn't understand what's been said. If the writer says, "You misunderstand I'll explain it to you." The implication is it's the reader's fault, maybe they just aren't smart enough. The implication of a lack of intelligence is multiplied by repeated explanations, especially if they are JUST repeats.

However if the writer says, "I didn't say that very well." Then restates him/er self in a different way Meaning may or may not be conveyed but there are no hard feelings on either side.

Good verbal communications are learned skills, knowledge and practice mean the difference between a meaningless verbalization of an internal dialogue and a successful exchange of information. Written communications has much of the transfer devices stripped from it. We've attempted to replace them with things like: Specific definitions, punctuation and grammar but context is king. How a word is perceived depends on where you put it and to a lesser degree how it's punctuated.

Sorry, this turned into a long ramble but once I got going . . . <sigh>

Frosty The Lucky.

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