J.L.S

Japanese tool used to grind tools on stones

Recommended Posts

Hi ive been trying to find information about a japanese tool for a while now but...I dont speak a lot of japanese, I dont really speak any japanese..
the closest I have come to finding out the name is "togi-ban" but im not so sure I got that right.
pictures taken from screenshots. since I have no name for this, by which to search or find anything of higher res T^T

681871379_www-youtube-com(1).png.41c63a3c6e517cdfcade9a13967073d0.png

1745783108_www-youtube-com(2).png.2a5123be7892d61107f87a64a9a4913c.png

102261010_www-youtube-com(3).png.d7329f02d94263998ae7308ed0c1da5b.png

981325476_www-youtube-com(4).png.d45776a1a26ed8e137eca6e1da7763ef.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I learned something kind of interesting though not my plate of hash, searching "Togi Ban" terms. Seems the pro Japanese wrestler by name (sort of) Togi has been Banned from TV and other venues. The Togi Ban. :lol:

What you're looking for is a grinding or sharpening angle guide. New versions aren't like your pictures though there appears to be one similar down this page. The guides are for sale from any  number of knife suppliers. This one is called a "Togeru", pics linked below.

Frosty The Lucky.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=japanese+blade+grinding+tools&fr=crmas&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.import.jpn.com%2Fhocho-knife%2Fimg%2Fp0282-0282_sharpening_tool%2Fp0282-9_super_togeru_ceramic_sharpening_guide_04.jpg#id=2&iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.import.jpn.com%2Fhocho-knife%2Fimg%2Fp0282-0282_sharpening_tool%2Fp0282-9_super_togeru_ceramic_sharpening_guide_04.jpg&action=click

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hard to tell from the photos...is this a jig to hold the blade flat for a face hone?...such as the flat of a plane blade vs a bevel guide?  I've never seen anyone do enough of those to need to use a holding jig...and I'd think the pressure you'd be putting on a Japanese water stone would erode the flat stone face pretty quickly (japanese stones are pretty soft).  Japanese water stones are made to be re-flattened but who wants to throw away that .005" of an expensive stone to re-flattening very often?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this is a rough surface grinding tool, not at all used for bevel angles and such, its to grind in the hollow section on japanese tools the "ura"
the plane blades, chisels razors etc, get clamped down to the wood to exert greater pressure.
the whetstones used for this are intentionally curved for hollowing out the tools back side.

nobody ever seems to talk about these tools tho, I suppose its a case of "lost in simplicity"
so simple and easy to understand that its a case of "why would anyone research this?"

I can make this from the pictures but just want to know the xxxxxxxxxxx name! XD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, J.Leon_Szesny said:

nobody ever seems to talk about these tools tho, I suppose its a case of "lost in simplicity"
so simple and easy to understand that its a case of "why would anyone research this?"

Nobody talks about them because they aren't interesting or maybe they're a cheat used by the unskilled, the poser?

We aren't a bladesmith forum though we discuss bladesmithing. I've watched numerous videos of Japanese blades being made and haven't seen much use of a guide or way to hold a blade unless it's small. Making blades isn't my thing but I am interested in tools and their uses. Unless I'm looking to buy one a name is way down the list from it's utility. 

If ALL you're interested in is the name I fail to see why you're bothering us. Perhaps a Japanese blade forum is a better choice, Think?

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok, now it makes sense.  I do have some hollow ground japanese planes and never thought about the jigs to do that...of course mine are probably from much more modern jigs and machines.

My Japanese source for that kind of info passed away a while back.  There is similar in Hong Kong but with chinese style planes and and my guy there also died a couple of years back.  Dang, that starts to make me feel old.

Now you got me curious so I gotta do some digging....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Frosty,
as far as I can tell its a traditional tool that seems to be part of the old handmade only factory standard, its true that nowadays they use grinding machines to create the hollow on the backs of plane irons and chisels but back then this is the best/fastes tool they had, I don't think its a cheat tool? its essentially like a hand sanding stick that knife makers use, except the tools is on the stick.
ye ye, maybe i should go to some Japanese smithing forum, true u_u
 

kozzy,
yea i know that feeling and im relatively "young", i guess that's what happens when you occupy your life with things from a by gone era XD
I hope you find something, anything, im still coming up blank D:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

J.Leon

Your last post mentioned  "Handmade only factory standard" which is a little difficult to understand in the context of a holding tool used with power equipment.

If you were looking the name of a hand tool that would be used in lieu of grinding equipment, I would suggest you look into a sen which is the metal working equivalent of a draw knife.  I've been lead to believe they're a Chinese tool used to carve the recess or recesses commonly found on the back side of Asian style plane irons and chisels.

It's my understanding that the hollow(s) are to speed the flattening by reducing the surface area that has to be ground.  One interesting nugget tied to these, is that they're commonly used on laminated blades.  Roy Underhill's "Woodwright Shop" had an episode on them where the guest explained something that always bugged me about them.  See the grooves are cut really close to the edge, which always seemed like it would limit the lifespan of the cutting tool.  Typically the "back" of the blade is the high carbon part.  The groove(s) aren't cut deep enough to fully bisect the high carbon lamination.  This means that the "flattening" grind is actually tapered. When the back is ground at a slight taper, the starting point of the groove(s) move backwards at the same pace as the edge.  

As I understand it, the high carbon layer of laminated blades are  tempered much harder than a monosteel tool would be because the low carbon layer is there to provide shock resistance.  This makes the high carbon blades difficult to sharpen, which is why they reduce surface area by carving the groove(s) on the back of the blade.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 9/8/2019 at 10:23 AM, J.Leon_Szesny said:

I can make this from the pictures but just want to know the xxxxxxxxxxx name! XD

Tell me kid, what kind of responses do you expect when you speak to the people attempting to help in this way?

I'll leave you be if you prefer. Your call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually there may be subtle factors that you can't get just from the pictures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Frosty said:

Tell me kid, what kind of responses do you expect when you speak to the people attempting to help in this way?

I'll leave you be if you prefer. Your call.

the censored word was a non swear word, thats why I wrote it.(thought that much would be ok) 
I don't see how its offensive when I voice my own hopelessness, over the fact I cant figure out what something is called, in a lighthearted joking manner.
even if I had used a swear word, in no way did I mean to attack anyone. 

we all learn from our experiences and I guess I just learned that even non swear words that might be "too close for comfort" are not ok in this forum. 


Frosty: I am very young but c'mon man, no adults likes being called "kid" :unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep it civil, folks.

15 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

It's my understanding that the hollow(s) are to speed the flattening by reducing the surface area that has to be ground.  One interesting nugget tied to these, is that they're commonly used on laminated blades.  Roy Underhill's "Woodwright Shop" had an episode on them where the guest explained something that always bugged me about them.  See the grooves are cut really close to the edge [...] Typically the "back" of the blade is the high carbon part.  The groove(s) aren't cut deep enough to fully bisect the high carbon lamination.  

This is correct.

15 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

This means that the "flattening" grind is actually tapered. When the back is ground at a slight taper, the starting point of the groove(s) move backwards at the same pace as the edge. 

This is not correct. The back is always kept perfectly flat around its edge, rather like how the rim of a bowl is all in one plane. When the bevel has been sharpened so much that it starts to impinge on the hollow on the back, the craftsman will tap on the bevel with a steel hammer just enough to push the bottom of the groove far enough out to come into plane with the rest of the back. This has to be done very carefully, to avoid cracking the hardened steel with too sharp a blow.

15 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

As I understand it, the high carbon layer of laminated blades are  tempered much harder than a monosteel tool would be because the low carbon layer is there to provide shock resistance.  This makes the high carbon blades difficult to sharpen, which is why they reduce surface area by carving the groove(s) on the back of the blade.

The laminated structure does provide a desirable combination of shock resistance and hardness, and they are harder to sharpen than a more dramatically tempered monosteel blade. However, the hollow on the back is not just to facilitate lapping (flattening), but also to reduce friction as a chisel is pushed or hammered through the wood.

15 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

If you were looking the name of a hand tool that would be used in lieu of grinding equipment, I would suggest you look into a sen which is the metal working equivalent of a draw knife.  I've been lead to believe they're a Chinese tool used to carve the recess or recesses commonly found on the back side of Asian style plane irons and chisels.

The sen is used in both China and Japan, and comes in a number of different forms. I gather that the most common is used for general shaping, much as we would use a large file for drawfiling. There are other versions that are for cutting the hollows in the back of chisels and plane blades, as well as for cutting fullers in knives and the like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JHCC,

Here's a link to the video I was referencing. Around 4:50 they discuss the Japanese plane blade.  At 6:50 they show sharpening, notice how the "flat" of the blade is sharpened.  It's held perpendicular to the stone such that only the taper is ground.  In the context of maintaining an edge capable of cutting to such a fine degree, it seems like a far more precise approach than peening the hardened edge.  Also, it seems like the all grinding approach would restore an edge much faster.

Japanese Chisels are addressed at 18:46.  The guest points out that the chisels are ground with a taper on the back.  Here he makes a comment about how it enhances visibility while cutting.  They didn't get into sharpening chisels, but the guest does make several comments about how the chisels are made the same way as plane irons.

The link I provided on the sen showed examples of all the uses you mentioned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know what you mean by "perpendicular to the stone"; that video shows the back being held flat to the stone and the bevel being held flat to the stone. 

Peening the bevel to push material out at the edge of the back is not part of the daily sharpening routine, but is only done occasionally as required. Yes, it is a much less precise operation, which is why the back is re-flattened around its perimeter after the peening. You will notice that the hollow area of the back is not smoothly curved, but has a straight section in the middle that's parallel to the edge. This is what happens with blades that have had the peening done multiple times, as you only do it where it's needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

rockstar.esq, yeh im familiar with that stuff ^-^ im mainly studying japanese tool smithing,
also the hollow/ura prevent your whetstones from deforming or wearing out faster. good whetstone > good tool
tho that point was probably mostly made in the ancient times, where only natural stones were used and finding a good natural stone, was/is still today like finding a treasure.
I got lucky once, found a stone that showed "potential" took it home cut it and flattened it and I wouldn't trade it for 1000$!
since then Ive cut several other rocks that showed "potential" but never found anything close to as good(for woodworking tools)  

dug up the video, the tool is at 18:38 and after that we see a sen being used as well

 

Edited by Mod44
Tagging with the "@" feature is not permitted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

J.L.S.,

China has recently become a supplier of natural sharpening, and whet stones. 

They come in various grits.

I think I remember seeing one of their stones was advertised as 16,000 or 18,000 grit.

If I remember,  the prices are not cheap but definitely not exorbitant.

It may be worth a search on the net.

Lee Valley Tools had a sale of natural water stones about 5 years ago. (they might have been seconds, but of high quality).

The late founder of that company, Mr. Leonard Lee was very much an expert on sharpening. He wrote an authoritative book and video on the subject.

He introduced Japanese water stones to woodworkers in Ontario, and Quebec, and thence to the rest of Canada, many, many  years ago*.

I miss him a lot.

Cheers,

SLAG.

*at least as early as the late 1960's, or beginning 1970's.

Great video,  thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JHCC,

In line with the stone would be how the blade moves while cutting wood. The entire bevel face is laid flat on the stone and it's worked along the stones length.  The guy makes a comment about how it's so perfectly flat that surface tension wants to stick the blade and stone together.

When he grinds the back of the plane blade,  he turns it ninety degrees and presents it to the stone such that most of the plane blade is hanging in space.  The only part of the blade that's getting ground, is the tapered side of the back towards the edge.  That flat area at the tip of the blade you mentioned naturally forms from grinding the hollowed back at a taper.  The long edge of the blade is moving sideways along the stone, which is why I referred to that as perpendicular.

If he had done what you're suggesting, he'd have laid the "back" completely flat on the stone like a hockey puck on ice, and worked the whole surface at once.  

On Japanese plane in the video, the flat "back" of the blade is  facing up when it's set in the wooden body.  While he's assembling the plane the camera shows the top side of that iron is only polished for roughly 1/3 the length of the iron as measured from edge to tail.  

Do you have something showing the peening technique?  I'd be interested to see it.  

J.Leon,

That video you posted shows them using a sen to carve a hollow on the "flat" back", it also shows that the top half of the "flat" side of that plane iron isn't ground at all.  In fact, if a user did grind the whole "flat" flat, they'd probably change the bedding angles and hence the blade protrusion because this form of plane doesn't have a secondary wedge to clamp it.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a tool for grinding Japanese box plane irons so that the back is convex called a dai naishi-gana. I don't know if that is how it is spelled. It's for rounding off the back of the plane iron so it will seat into the concave box. I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for or not but I thought I'd put it out there just in case.

Pnut

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes the tool is used to help grind in the hollow part on japanese plane irons but "dai naishi-gana" google translates to "i dont know" XD
hm but i'll keep that name in mind during my research.
thx
yes the sen was used but not to hollow out the back it was used to clean/flatten the front, the board tool was used to grind in the hollowed out back,
look at the whetstone hes grinding on, the stone is curved and has surface chisel marks for faster/rougher grinding.
sen also work for carving in the ura but this smith is using that "mystery name"-board for that.
 

The use of the @tag is discouraged. You might want to do a little reading.Using the @ name on the forum

Edited by Mod30
Remove @tags

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "dai" is the wooden part or box, "gana" or " kana" translates to plane and I'm not sure about the "naishi" word I'm guessing grind or shape.

Pnut

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just remembered something,
sword polishers are called "togishi", maybe the word "naishi" is something in the same direction?
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That very well could be. Translating Japanese into phonetic English is inexact at best for someone like myself who is unfamiliar with Japanese. I can't manage to find the website I seen it on. It was background and plans to build a Japanese box plane. I haven't been able to find it again and it was too long ago to find in my search history. I'll keep looking and if I can find it I'll let you know. It was pretty detailed information and gave the Japanese names for all the parts of the plane and tools to make them.  It's more than possible I'm misspelling naishi or not remembering the proper pronunciation.

Pnut

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yep I know how that feels...I dont know a lot of japanese either, and i forget to bookmark websites like that too...there was one that had a name for the process of using a wooden board to grind japanese knives on these huge electric wet grinding wheels
all I know is that the word started with "E"...E...Euke...Eku...Eruka...Eureka..no thats not right...
 

good luck on finding that website, I hope it has the name! 
if I cant find out the name ill have to resort to naming it something like "ura shaping board" or "hollow grinding jig/board"  XD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

Then maybe start acting like an adult. You could start with eliminating the childish internet/texting slang. Then read the stickies here.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/9-feedback-and-support/

"act like an adult" I don't appreciate the manner in which you have chosen to address my shortcomings.(like that?)
"childish language" well, that's like, your own opinion man..dude bro?(I don't even speak like that, but I do speak in an expressive flavorful lighthearted manner, sorry)
"read the stickies" so, no "@"-ing at people? strange but ok, personally I was never a fan of that anyway, other than that. 
I didn't insult or intentionally disrespect people and I did say "thank you" to people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.