Is my anvil good, and what is it?

[Fatlip]

I bought this anvil for around $400 from a guy working in a hospital. They cleared out the old machine and workshop, and decided to sell this anvil. There weren’t many others for a price as good as he offered, so I ended up making the purchase. However, I can’t seem to figure out what the make of this anvil is. I originally thought  it was a Trenton, but now I’m leaning more towards it being a cast steel Swedish, but I could be wrong there too. I have only been blacksmithing more seriously for about half a year, and I need an expert’s opinion. 

 

The anvil is 135lbs, and was acquired by the hospital in the early 1950’s.

[ThomasPowers]

Great price if that is $400 pesos, not knowing where you and it is at makes it hard to deduce things, you know a lot of countries use the $ sign for their money.

I'd kinda like to know if it was from a Hospital in Columbus Ohio, USA as I once talked with an orthopedic smith who had worked there during WWII making weird splints and braces and last I had checked the anvil was still in a sub basement there.

[Steve Sells]

in OZ its a good deal too, anvils are scarce down there

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

What's being suggested, is to edit your profile to show where in the world you are located. READ THIS FIRST

[Fatlip]

Sorry, didn’t add enough details of locations, thanks for the suggestion 

On 8/23/2019 at 8:27 PM, ThomasPowers said:

Great price if that is $400 pesos, not knowing where you and it is at makes it hard to deduce things, you know a lot of countries use the $ sign for their money.

I edited my profile, it should have my location info now. 

 

Unfortunately it’s not the anvil you know of. This is from a hospital in the lower mainland of British Columbia, Canada. Sadly, my anvil was being used as a pellet gun target for the past decade.

I am in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Money anvil was purchased with is in CAD. So it’d be around $300 USD

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I don't think a pellet gun will leave those marks on the side's, not doubting it was used as a target though.

More likely who ever was using it, tested the sharpness of punches & chisels that were made using the anvil.   At $300 U.S. you did well on the price of $2.22 a pound as long as the ring & rebound are good. I think your anvil is a Hay Budden made in Brooklyn NY. If so the serial number A414 is dated in Anvils of America to 1918. If it's a Hay Budden or Trenton you have a very good anvil and I hope you have read about not doing any grinding, milling or welding on the hardened face..

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Fatlip, glad to have you. Not including a location in the header is common, we're suggesting it all the time and once you do, it changes in all your posts so you don't need to tell us. Again no sweat, using the forum is a learning curve, we're a generally pretty informal bunch. It's what IDF&C's "read this first" link is about, it's well worth a read or six. 

Putting that old lady to work will go a long way to bringing her face back into good working condition. A little cup brush on a 90 disk grinder (NO grinding DISKS!!) action on the body is a good way to bring out details and clean up the rust if you wish. I like a carnuba paste wax applied to a fresh cup coffee or tea temp anvil as a finish though there are other excellent preservative finishes. Boiled linseed oil, Johnson's paste wax, etc. work well.

Looks like you have a nice working anvil there. Post some pics of your work please, we LOVE pics.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Fatlip]

8 hours ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

I don't think a pellet gun will leave those marks. More likely who ever was using it, tested the sharpness of punches & chisels that were made using the anvil.   

I didn’t know the marks on the sides we’re from a chisel or punch, so I learned something new there. But that wasn’t what I was referring to. Below I’ll put a detailed photo of the pock marks on the side of it. 

It doesn’t ring too loudly but the rebound is around 80%, so it seems to be in good working order. I have done my reading on how to treat the anvil, don’t worry! I won’t be doing anything to ruin the steel face. The guy who sold it to me was just “about to mill the face half a inch down, so it’s flat” for me though, I told him to leave it as is. I almost xxxxxxxxxx when he told me that.

Thanks for the info on it, I’ll still be doing more research to confirm, so it helps a ton!

[Fatlip]

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

Welcome aboard Fatlip, glad to have you. 

Glad to find a community like this, and happy to be here! I’ll make sure to read over the “read this first” a few more times. 

So just using the anvil will help with the face? I’ll make sure to keep at it then! I’ll probably go to work on the sides by hand, but I saw someone used a Wirebrush on a dremel tool to clean up the sides of their anvil, could that damage it? I was thinking of using beeswax and turpentine (I have a beehive in my yard so it’s easy to acquire) but I’ll look into more options and see what’s best. Thank you for the solid advice. 

I’ll be making a post of some of my work, but here’s a pic of what I made already, just a simple rebar knife, didn’t want to put too much work in so I left it rough.

[Frosty]

Yeah, we're a fun bunch, especially if you're a practitioner in the highest form of humor known. Puns. 

You get guys using wire brushes in Dremels now and then but I think that's more of using the tool they have than a good idea. A wire brush in an angle grinder isn't going to hurt anything unless you go stark raving crazy with it. Even then.

Yes, putting that old lady to work will put a shine on her face and go a long way to driving the dents out flat. If you take a straight edge to a dent you can see a raised rim around the depression, it's not that hard to drive the rim back into the depression. The picture of the side of your anvil is a perfect example, every punch mark has a distinct rim. Yes? The chisel marks don't show well because they're spread out on a line and because chisels cut the displaced steel isn't on the surface only. Make sense? Heck practice forging dents out on the sides?

The rims aren't as distinct on the face because the steel is hardened so the rims are much more shallow and wide rather than tall and sharp. 

Bees wax is a fine finish on iron just be aware it stays tacky for a while so you need to be careful on products that'll come in contact with things it might stain. Say a coat hook someone might hang a white sweater on. Yes? Thinning it with turps allows a nice thin coat that penetrates deeply. Thinning wax and oils is a common method for finishes, there are a surprising amount of surface features you can't see but still need protection. That's from water.

You'll learn more quickly if you just buy a stick of steel than using rebar. I've heard a number of fellows who make or sell rebar dispute it's inconsistency so I won't go there. It's hard to get rid of the texture and . . . Anyway, I break people in forging 3/8" sq or 1/2" rd hot rolled. Both are an equivalent volume of steel per inch. There's enough there to hold heat for a while but not so heavy it'll wear you out so quickly.

If you're going to make knives use suitable blade steel. Eh? 

I recommend learning to forge first, there are enough learning curves to master without including the much finickier heat management necessary to forge tool steel. Once you have a good handle on blacksmith basics you'll know how to make steel do (more or less) what you want and learning to forge tool steel is just learning that heat management and it's feel under the hammer. Once you're proficient at the anvil you can learn to forge knives in an afternoon. Oh they aren't going to be prize winners or big money knives but you'll be able to make competent blades.

Of course that's my opinion every smith has another.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Chris C]

Congratulations on your new "baby",  Fatlip.  I'm really extremely happy for you.   Maybe I'll stumble onto something that nice someday.

[Fatlip]

51 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Yeah, we're a fun bunch, especially if you're a practitioner in the highest form of humor known. Puns.  Frosty The Lucky.

 

Amazing, I don’t know if puns were popular here, my family hates them, but I’m all about them so it’s good to hear. 

I’ll definitely practice forging the little dents out, didn’t even think of that. Your explanation helps tons too. 

It’s hard to find anything other than mild steel on this side of Canada. The US seems to have much easier access, but I’ll try getting some of the bar stock and round stock you suggested. 

I have some 01 tool steel and some 1095, both flat bar. Plus I have lots of 1/2 mild steel bar stock, I’ll put some work in with that. 

I just wanted some practice and had some rebar laying around rusting so I used it, but it does seem inconsistent. I think making some leaves is on the menu. Plus I still need to make myself a pair of tongs. 

I’ll stick to the basics for now then, I’m not sure where to start since I’m still quite new to this, but I’ll keep learning. The local blacksmiths I found (one shop with two bladesmiths who are business partners) do classes on making knives and teach lessons starting with knives so I assumed it was where to go if I wanted to be a bladesmith. That’ll be something for the future, however. 

Thanks once again for all the help and advice. I’m gonna get to work and plan out some other projects for sure, just simple stuff. Oh, and you better call an ambulance for the steel I’ll be forging, it’s gonna take quite the beating. (Lol)

34 minutes ago, Chris The Curious said:

Congratulations on your new "baby",  Fatlip.  I'm really extremely happy for you.   Maybe I'll stumble onto something that nice someday.

Thanks, Chris. I’ll send some positive vibes your way, hope you find yourself a baby like mine sometime soon ❤️!

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Welcome from the desert of southern Nevada.

For cleaning with an angle grinder do not use knotted wire cup wheels as they can be too aggressive. Use unknotted cups with a medium weight wire. You just want to clean it up, not take the patina off and make it all silvery.

For starting projects to gain hammer control ;  take some bar stock long enough to just hold onto and make the end square for a bit, then take it back to round. Do this repeatedly until you can forge a square that is not a diamond , straight, consistent size, and flat. Same with rounds. You are trying to learn how to hit, where to  hit, and learn how the metal moves when struck. Remember that the anvil acts like a second hammer and copies what you do on top with the hand hammer.

Now, do the same as above, but with tapers in round and square.

Once you can hit where you want and the metal does what you want you  can start doing twists, upsetting, drawing out, curves and scrolls, etc..

ABANA has some tutorials for beginners. They may even have an affiliate up your way.

[ThomasPowers]

"It’s hard to find anything other than mild steel on this side of Canada."  I am utterly surprised to learn that they have banned cars and trucks there! Last week when I had my starter replaced my local mechanic offered me anything I wanted from his scrap pile for free and there were half a ton or so of leaf springs and coil springs; generally 5160 steel and a good steel especially for larger blades.

For folks starting out; I suggest a good car or pickup coil spring---the fewer miles the better---and cut it along a diameter giving you a dozen to a score of (  ) pieces all of the same alloy. This will allow you to learn how to work that alloy and experiment heat treating it too.  (If there is anywhere that does lifts for 4wd vehicles you can sometimes get brand new springs that were taken off for the lift kit!)

Truck axles can make decent hammer heads, I brought home a 2" diameter one from the local scrapyard recently---going to sit until I habe my powerhammer powered up...

[Chris C]

I've been driving around to repair shops begging for leaf spring sets..............even individual leaf springs.  After two weeks of that, I finally had a mechanic say he had some leaf spring pieces at home and to check back with him next week and he'll try and remember to bring a piece in.  Man, it's hard getting scrap steel.

I've got some kind of axle that DHarris gave me.  Savin' it for hammer heads.

[CrazyGoatLady]

I have a pile of leaf springs just sitting around. Got them when I first started smithing because I just knew I'd need them That's been over two years ago. The scrapyards around here always have a bunch of that and coil springs. 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Canada also has some heavy industries, so good steels should be available. Myself and others have already covered where to look for them in other threads.

[Frosty]

Love your AVATAR Fatlip! You're going to fit right in here. Those of us into punishment sometimes hijack a thread and run the puns to death. Please don't hesitate to start the action, you won't get yelled at. Well, probably not some folk just don't appreciate the finer arts. 

Steel's easy to find Fatlip, especially if there's a doughnut shop handy. Don't let Chris's luck discourage you, he lives at the end of a long road in the forest and needs to get out more.

look in the phone book, the real paper one, not the internet and talk to people on the phone it's much more productive than sending emails to be deleted. First call a steel supplier and ask, if they don't carry the blade steel you want they WILL know who does. Same for spring shops, they toss broken or replaced springs by the dumpster. Fab shops, especially ones specializing in fences, railings and staircases usually have drops of new stock. A drop is a cut off from a bar that's too short to use in the shop but isn't really scrap. A box of doughnuts is excellent PR and be nice to the receptionists! The receptionist or bosses secretary knows more about the how, where and whats of a business than the boss ever did. That's who you want on your side.  Secretaries react well to gifts it doesn't have to be fancy, large or expensive a hand forged: card holder, letter opener, pen holder, etc. goes over well. It's the thought.

Frosty The Lucky.

[tanglediver]

I finally had to let go of about a half ton of treasure to the scrap steel bin at work. Sad really, but I see a LOT of leaf springs get tossed. Not so much coils, I've put back a couple of those though. 

[pnut]

Is your anvil good? Does it do what you need it to do without a lot of extra effort? If it's working for you then it's good. I use a big piece of vertical rail. Now lots of folks say they are junk and a waste of effort. I've ran into some difficulties with it but have come up with fairly easy workarounds to make it work. The biggest so far was punching a hole in flat bar for twist tongs. I made a hold down and attached it to a log that's the same height as my rail. Just put the hot end on the rail the cold end on the log and throw the weighted chain hold down over it and I have two hands free. It's not ideal but it works. So good, I don't know, but good enough yep. I would say if your anvil has a decent rebound and does what you need it to do it's good.

Pnut

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by pnut

[Black Frog]

No doubt this is a very early Columbus Trenton.  Only a few thousand were made like this before switching to cast bases.

 

[Fatlip]

On 8/25/2019 at 5:44 AM, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Welcome from the desert of southern Nevada.

For cleaning with an angle grinder do not use knotted wire cup wheels as they can be too aggressive. Use unknotted cups with a medium weight wire. You just want to clean it up, not take the patina off and make it all silvery.

For starting projects to gain hammer control ;  take some bar stock long enough to just hold onto and make the end square for a bit, then take it back to round. Do this repeatedly until you can forge a square that is not a diamond , straight, consistent size, and flat. Same with rounds. You are trying to learn how to hit, where to  hit, and learn how the metal moves when struck. Remember that the anvil acts like a second hammer and copies what you do on top with the hand hammer.

ABANA has some tutorials for beginners. They may even have an affiliate up your way.

Thanks for the kind welcome!

Will do, I just wanted to get some of the rust off it anyways. 

I’ve been practicing when I’ve found the time this week. Round, to square(ish), and back. Definitely seeing improvement, I think I need to get a smaller hammer though. I’m using a 3lb right now and can only work about 2 hours at a time with it max. 

ABANA seems like it’ll be tons of help, thank you for all the advice.

On 8/25/2019 at 1:33 PM, ThomasPowers said:

For folks starting out; I suggest a good car or pickup coil spring---the fewer miles the better---and cut it along a diameter giving you a dozen to a score of (  ) pieces all of the same alloy. This will allow you to learn how to work that alloy and experiment heat treating it too.  (If there is anywhere that does lifts for 4wd vehicles you can sometimes get brand new springs that were taken off for the lift kit!)

Truck axles can make decent hammer heads, I brought home a 2" diameter one from the local scrapyard recently---going to sit until I habe my powerhammer powered up...

I’ve been looking around car scrapyards and talking to some shops. Not too much luck but I’ve got some steel and plan on making some more tools.  I’ll be checking out some machine shops next too. 

I’ll start asking for truck axles too, I didn’t even think of that!

On 8/25/2019 at 1:36 PM, Chris The Curious said:

I've been driving around to repair shops begging for leaf spring sets..............even individual leaf springs.  After two weeks of that, I finally had a mechanic say he had some leaf spring pieces at home and to check back with him next week and he'll try and remember to bring a piece in.  Man, it's hard getting scrap steel.

I've got some kind of axle that DHarris gave me.  Savin' it for hammer heads.

It’s hard to get scrap steel, but honestly if you ask around enough places it seems like your bound to find one place that’ll help you out. Just keep at it.

Have some fun with that axle!

On 8/25/2019 at 1:45 PM, CrazyGoatLady said:

I have a pile of leaf springs just sitting around. Got them when I first started smithing because I just knew I'd need them That's been over two years ago. The scrapyards around here always have a bunch of that and coil springs. 

Lucky you! I’m trying to start my stockpile now, hope I can catch up.

On 8/25/2019 at 1:55 PM, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Canada also has some heavy industries, so good steels should be available. Myself and others have already covered where to look for them in other threads.

I’ve been looking around and it’s not too much trouble if you talk face to face. I was looking in all the wrong places, only finding mild steel, which I’ve been practicing with. I still need time to peruse the site for more info and I’ll  look for those threads, thank you.

[Fatlip]

On 8/25/2019 at 2:51 PM, Frosty said:

Love your AVATAR Fatlip! You're going to fit right in here. 

Steel's easy to find Fatlip, especially if there's a doughnut shop handy. Don't let Chris's luck discourage you, he lives at the end of a long road in the forest and needs to get out more.

look in the phone book, the real paper one, not the internet and talk to people on the phone it's much more productive than sending emails to be deleted. First call a steel supplier and ask, if they don't carry the blade steel you want they WILL know who does. Same for spring shops, they toss broken or replaced springs by the dumpster. Fab shops, especially ones specializing in fences, railings and staircases usually have drops of new stock. A drop is a cut off from a bar that's too short to use in the shop but isn't really scrap. A box of doughnuts is excellent PR and be nice to the receptionists! The receptionist or bosses secretary knows more about the how, where and whats of a business than the boss ever did. That's who you want on your side.  Secretaries react well to gifts it doesn't have to be fancy, large or expensive a hand forged: card holder, letter opener, pen holder, etc. goes over well. It's the thought.

Frosty The Lucky.

Thank you. I hope I do fit in, seems like that’s easy to do around here though! 

You were right (obviously). The specificity in your post really helped a lot. I found a couple suppliers that I could order some high carbon steel from, and have found a couple leaf springs to work with too (woohoo!). I’ll keep at it though, I like to be well prepared and I want as much stock as I can get, finding scrap (cut offs, coils, etc.) is definitely addictive. 

Still working on the PR, but when I find time in between work and whatnot I’ll be buttering up whoever I can. 

All this info is much appreciated. I can’t thank you (and everyone else on this site) enough! 

[pnut]

If you use a hammer that's too heavy you can cause some real damage to your elbow and shoulder, but your elbow mainly. Look around yard sales or junk/pawn shops, flea markets and antique stores for a 24 or 36 oz. ball pien hammer.  If you're not using larger than 3/8 or 1/2 in. stock a one pound hammer will work. A lighter hammer is easier to learn good hammer control too. A big hammer makes mistakes permanent faster. I use a dogshead hammer that weighs about a pound and a half or three quarters. I haven't weighed it but it moves metal surprisingly fast. It has a small face as does a ball pien hammer. Small face= more pounds per square inch being delivered to the work compared to a larger face.

Pnut

If push comes to shove you can always buy a new ball pien hammer at HF or TSC etc. They cost less than twenty bucks but most have synthetic handles. I don't care for them but it's easy enough to re handle a hammer. I couldn't find a cross pien anywhere near me that weighed less than three pounds and the used ball piens were no easier to find for some reason so I got a new one.

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by pnut

[Fatlip]

On 8/25/2019 at 11:47 PM, tanglediver said:

I finally had to let go of about a half ton of treasure to the scrap steel bin at work. Sad really, but I see a LOT of leaf springs get tossed. Not so much coils, I've put back a couple of those though. 

Oh well, not all treasures can be saved. Lucky you for having such a good supply.

On 8/31/2019 at 6:02 AM, pnut said:

If you a hammer that's too heavy you can cause some real damage to your elbow and shoulder, but your elbow mainly. Look around yard sales or junk/pawn shops, flea markets and antique stores for a 24 or 36 oz. ball pien hammer.  If you're not using larger than 3/8 or 1/2 in. stock a one pound hammer will work. A lighter hammer is easier to learn good hammer control too. A big hammer makes mistakes permanent faster. I use a dogshead hammer that weighs about a pound and a half or three quarters. I haven't weighed it but it moves metal surprisingly fast. It has a small face as does a ball pien hammer. Small face= more pounds per square inch being delivered to the work compared to a larger face.

Pnut

“Is your anvil good? Does it do what you need it to do without a lot of extra effort? If it's working for you then it's good.” (quoted from previous comment by pnut)

yup, it’s a good anvil then! Didn’t know what to think for myself, I was just hoping I didn’t get ripped off. But you’re right, if it works, it works.

I’ll make sure to take a look at all the places you suggested. Most of the men in my family have had shoulder/hip issues from sports or weight training, so I’ll downgrade my weight. I am relatively quite strong so I thought ‘big hammer mean more power’, but I need to stop thinking like a caveman! My dad will probably let me have one of his old ball piens to thrash up. 

“Small face = more pounds per square inch”. I need to start thinking with physics in mind too. 

Gonna get that hammer control in line now, thank you!

On 8/26/2019 at 8:47 AM, Black Frog said:

No doubt this is a very early Columbus Trenton.  Only a few thousand were made like this before switching to cast bases.

 

xxxx, I hope so!