jlpservicesinc Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 On this note the old bolt holes did line up close enough on the upsetting block to use 5/8" or 1/2" size. the other blank side can use the original 3/4" bolt size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rojo Pedro Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 Thanks for the pictures and the brain power. She looks like a battleship from above :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 My pleasure. Not a lot of info out there on the Refflinghaus in detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 Jenifer, Alex said "oh wow!" when he saw the photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 24, 2019 Author Share Posted August 24, 2019 I like it. Pretty much sums up how I feel about it also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 It is an impressive tool. Hope to see it one day if I can ever take a class from you. Pnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 That's a beautiful anvil Jennifer. The minor problem of bolt holes in the stand not matching is another good argument for NOT using a system like yours. The upsetting block would be a little problematical for an anvil stand like I prefer but not much. My anvil just wedges into an angle iron rim welded to the legs and doesn't need to be clamped down. A 450+ lb. anvil would be even less likely to move, I'd be less inclined to to use wedges and make my hammer racks a little differently in that case. I've never seen a convincing reason to mount an anvil on a steel plate. Steel on steel is INCLINED to slip under a side load as well as bounce. Rubber mats are attempts to correct a problem that shouldnt have occurred. The weight of the stand has little if any benefit to an anvil's effectiveness beyond holding it solidly. Rigid and secure is all an anvil stand needs to provide. The sound damping qualities of a steel stand are a significant benefit but have nothing to do with the effectiveness of the anvil, just working conditions in the shop. Nothing I've said here are dissing you Jennifer, we all work and mount our equipment to our preferences and you produce work that brooks nothing but respect. None of the above is criticism though it probably sounds like it. It's a critique of mounting anvils on a steel plate. PERIOD. Your's always, Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 The following response is more for the sake of disclosure and information. No Malice or such to ensue and the current stand will be removed and a new one will be made to bolt to the bottom mounting block.. 2 hours ago, Frosty said: The minor problem of bolt holes in the stand not matching is another good argument for NOT using a system like yours. Frosty, I'm going to respond but feel it's more or less a waste of information as the point of the stand is moot. But since we will discuss why wedging is better than bolting or why I like bolts better and why I like steel stands better than wood.. Which I like them evenly but do prefer the steel fabricated stands for the reasons soon outlined. I totally disagree with you as to your method of wedging being the solution for a totally different anvil of different size, make and model.. Based on several different factors. 2 totally different anvils with 2 totally different measurements.. LOL.. Not even close in size or weight.. (Using your quoted reasoning as to the reason its not a good system.. LOL). By the way, The Refflinghaus anvil will bolt right onto the stand with just a 5/8" round bolt setup on one side (upsetting block) vs the 3/4" bolts that were the original designed items, for the Peddinghaus. It will take me about 1 hr to forge the new bolts and install them completely.. ( Is this a problem? Not for someone who has the skills to make them). Kind of a crazy thing to suggest a stand made custom, to fit exactly to the feet/outline of the base for a 275lbs anvil would fit exactly the same base as a 460lbs anvil of a different make and model with only wedges. No matter what its made out of unless the stand is way oversized to begin with. (which is not acceptable to me. I like my anvils tight to the stand with no outwards projections from the stand or stump at the feet). Wedging or not it wouldn't work unless you had a longer stand wider stand. Not sure how that even makes sense. Again as the stand in the trailer was designed to fit the Peddinghaus feet exactly. With this said: As you know most anvils over 250lbs were rarely if ever bolted down. Here is the strongest information as to why it has bolts vs any other mounting method though I still like bolts the best. ( the main reason to have it so well bolted is that I have to lift the stand up for travel as well as the stand acting as the holder for the anvil going over the road).. Besides metal on metal or wood on metal.. Metal stand from different MFG's have been used for many years, fisher, and nearly all the other more modern anvil manufactures sold anvil stands made from cast iron.. LOL.. Again anvils over a certain weight were not bolted down. The main problem with wood is. A correct bolting method to secure the anvil appropriately to the level I like. Which I figured it out early on with the design below some 35 years ago. Nearly all the early rags of the day had methods for mounting anvils as it was a problem for many. Not a wooden stand in the trailer. Vibration is what produces sound from a struck anvil. Remove the vibration and the sound will lessen. If you mount an anvil solidly with any stand and the vibration will lessen. I think you misread many things I wrote about steel stands and such since coming here or maybe you are just taking away that which stuck out. My stand or stump for 30 yr was maple with a pretty awesome tie down with nearly no ring. and this had some major faults which were a problem for the way I work at the anvil. but it's a different game when just hitting the top. some photo's of the original stump with mounting straps. Rock-solid. wonderful. But it's neither here not there. My issues are with personal preferences and then, a Better or worst-case scenario based on words as to which is better.. LOL.. (My way is better than your way because of X, Y and Z based on speculation as to which is based merely how one uses or works at an anvil) not working at the anvil as hard or using it only a particular way that never sees the same level of pressure in use. No side load, no working with larger stock sizes in the hardie hole when bending steel etc, etc. Working solely on the very top. I will say it much simpler as to the metal stands. I prefer a well made fabricated steel stand because of the ease in modifying it into what I want it to be, with shelves, tool racks and the like as well as the ease with which it can be modified in the future. (wood is much tougher to add pieces back to especially if metal is what you work in and have easily available). No offense offered or taken. LOL.. (Black widow stand as a very superior design).. LOL. chuckle, chuckle.. ***** My favorite stand of all is the one that serves, my demands for it to perform above and beyond all reasonable and unreasonable demands put upon it. **** Wedges, bolts, glue, epoxy.. whatever you feel works for you. Is great. I do what I know works for me and it's that simple.. By the way I ordered the new material for the new stand build which will commence next week. This time the stand will bolt to the base as well as use bolts to hold the anvil in place. 4) 3/4" bolts for the base mounting plate to the floor thimble Rectangular box that sits on the ground. And nearly the same exact design of bolts show with the Peddinghaus anvil other than the links will be offsided for extra clearance on the sides. the first stand build for the trailer (using the Hay Budden 175) was a temporary design as it was the prototype to figure out distance over a series of demos and the angle iron at the feet was so I could add wooden blocks to adjust height as need be.. Turns out the spacers were never needed as every place i worked was level enough where the adjustment in the trailer was enough. the next stand, as well as the current one in the trailer, will actually be shorter. the current stand will be 1" shorter overall and the new stand for the Refflinghaus will be just over 2" shorter as the Refflinghaus is 1+" taller than the Peddinghaus. The Blackwidow stand will fit and work with no modifications all the anvils on the stash behind it with no other items or wedges needed. Just a wrench. chuckle, chuckle and maybe some wooden blocks for the 100lbs Vanadium anvil. So, don't really see your point unless we are simply discussing different mounting strategies.. Then the whole fault as to your methods need not apply.. LOL.. Post up a photo of your wedging method.. Be happy to analyze it for good merit on future stands that won't be lifting up a 300lbs rectangular block off the ground. You can see how tight the feet are to the stand. nOt even sure where i would add a wedge but I'm sure you will point out a way. A wedgle and silly puddy perhaps. Thanks for you help and feedback on this issue..LOL.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: So, don't really see your point unless we are simply discussing different mounting strategies.. Then the whole fault as to your methods need not apply.. LOL.. I thought I covered my point pretty clearly in the last sentence. The fact your new anvil didn't match up with the old ones hold down bolt holes is a surprise? I have NO idea why you'd even try it on the old stand. I know I never considered putting the Trenton on the Soderfors stand when I got it home. Sure I took the chainsaw to a spruce block for temporary hammer play but the Trenton got it's own stand immediately. My anvils have always had dedicated stands and I haven't had to tie an anvil to one since I mortised the first one into the block and let the block shrink. I've posted pics of my anvil and stand enough you know how I mount mine, yes? I bent and welded 1/4" x 2" x 3" angle iron 2" flange up to match the anvil's base and welded on legs. They lift out or drop in easily enough if you do it straight or scale hasn't filled the bit of gap there is. My hammer and tong racks are 1/8" x 1" angle iron, welded flange down with a slot cut in each side so it slips over the stand, a couple taps with a hammer and it's securely wedged in. With the racks wedged in I can lift anvil, stand and hammers into my pickup with a sling around the anvil. Neither anvil moves unless you bounce, drag or twist the stand too. The one thing I don't get is putting an anvil on a steel plate, regardless of how it's held down. Steel on steel is not an easy contact to make secure, it always wants to slide. If you ever watch the "fail" videos online take note of what they were loading the track rigs on when they slid off the trailer or shifted on the barge and sank it, etc. Just out of curiosity, knowing how meticulous you are why didn't you get the specs on the anvil so you could have the stand ready when it was delivered? Sure, I wouldn't have drilled the holes till I had it in hand but the rest are pretty set in stone. Height, width, etc. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 Then why not just say that to begin with??? I can't read between the lines of out of context information and sarcasm is lost on me. So, why try it? For many, many reasons. 1) to see if it was going to be even possible with the layout of the trailer to fit the Refflinghaus into a working position. 40.5" long vs the Peddinghaus 28". (not much room in an 8X8X10 with full-sized forge, workbench, tool storage, etc, etc. (holding up a measuring tape does not give me the full representation a full sized model does). (not going to waste the time on a full sized model when I have it arriving to put into place). 2) to see if the original Peddinghaus stand could be used in the interim without having to make a whole new one. (time and money). Just as easy for me to remove the bolts and Peddinghaus and trial fit the Refflinghaus. 15min total.. Why because its bolted in.. LOL.. and the lift or winch is all ready in place. Remember it's a demo trailer with a place to lift the anvil/stand.. No extra time, or energy getting something moved or in place to be able to do it. (moves the anvil immediately out of the weather). 3) to Visualize the points above and then to actually see if the extra height would mess with me too much. After seeing the 3 points above (the 3rd point is the most problematic, height) I could tolerate the first 2 as it's temporary (not smooth to the stand (foot measure tight to stand, and tight on room (just enough room so not a problem) till the shop goes up and the Refflingaus will move to the main forge station. For now, I have 4 more demos this season and the shop won't be completed till about November. This means having to store the anvil somewhere out of the weather which at 460lbs and 40" long and 15" tall is a problem of moving it around vs the 275 Peddinghaus which I can move by hand nearly anyplace I want to, smaller to cover, etc, etc. I decided to build a new stand that will be completely bolted in so can be removed and used elsewhere (modified with wings/feet) an/or swapped back into the trailer if need be. As the Peddinghaus anvil stand is 1" too tall so will remove that extra 1" before making the new modification for bolting onto the base. this measure has been thought about for nearly a year but not wanting to spend the time on the modification have lived with it by lifting the trailer and floor up the extra 1". Now I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone and modify it for any future uses with any anvil I have simply with a bolt in stand. These modifications to the stand were contemplated back when the Peddinghaus arrived but I was not feeling spunky enough to warrant the extra work and expense of making all the threaded inserts and the extra bracing on the bottom of the stand for a removable upper stand. The timing was important then as well as I had it finished just a couple of days before a demo. I have a few weeks before the next demo. My anvils never slide with steel against steel because the mounting system even just with bolts secures it well enough.. Again, having it fitted and actually being able to tighten the bolts. The neat aspect about this Peddinghaus stand is the contrasted direction which the bolts pull. All of the systems I have used pull towards the middle of the anvil. its like using tie downs for moving cars or equipment that you pull from each end in the other direction (towards the center). This will center the load and keep it from sliding. I tension the bolts and bang on them with a hammer till they all sing the same. 1 hour ago, Frosty said: They lift out or drop in easily enough if you do it straight or scale hasn't filled the bit of gap there is. My hammer and tong racks are 1/8" x 1" angle iron, welded flange down with a slot cut in each side so it slips over the stand, a couple taps with a hammer and it's securely wedged in. With the racks wedged in I can lift anvil, stand and hammers into my pickup with a sling around the anvil. Neither anvil moves unless you bounce, drag or twist the stand too. I'm not willing to take a chance of it coming loose or coming apart. My method is so secure it's a no brainer with no incidence of it ever coming apart no matter what is done. Unless of course, I want it to come apart. 5 minutes with a ratchet and socket is all that is needed. We have many different desires or wants in our stands.. Keep in mind this is in the trailer and that huge bottom section rest on the ground and it weight nearlly 300lbs as I wanted it to be as solid as possible but also be reasonably light so I could move it with the items I had on hand at that time. Again many different desires. Once you used it and have seen it in operation as to moving it and setup it would all make perfect sense. Pretty amazing really. 1 hour ago, Frosty said: Just out of curiosity, knowing how meticulous you are why didn't you get the specs on the anvil so you could have the stand ready when it was delivered? Sure, I wouldn't have drilled the holes till I had it in hand but the rest are pretty set in stone. Height, width, etc. Well, I usually don't fabricate items unless I have the item in hand. Being nearly all the items I have ever made were done by hand, the hand fitting aspect is crucial. I've worked from blueprints on weldments and on forged items but find it's so much easier to have the item on hand and go from there. With this, I don't have the energy I used to nor the time to track down a proper blueprint or a properly measured unit to actually make the stand.. Think about how many anvils are out there and then gettng a straight answer from someone who actually owns one and will measure the item properly in a way that you want. with this said. I really just wanted to mount it on the stand I already have for the peddinghaus as a short cut and major time savings. I hesitate now to "Do" unless I have to "Do". The height will force me to "Do".. You do realize the demo trailer all started out as a simple fender change right.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: a simple fender change That took on a life of it's own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 It sure did. Divine inspiration. Each time I wanted to just do a shortcut (this is good enough) a voice would come on in my head and say" Now is not the time for a shortcut". Build it as it should be.. Then I'd just get back to work and make it the way it was supposed to be. 8 months and change. Only a few mistakes in what would be better a second time around. Mainly storage which translates into an extra 4ft longer and no pull rings on the drawers on the workbench. I used rings to hold the rods which hold the drawers closed. A duh moment. One does not need handles to surround the bar which will hold the drawers closed. Ring top and bottom for the bar to fit into. Thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 So, here are a few photo's as to the reason why I waited on the stand. It's funny how the Refflinghaus doesn't look that big by itself and the photo's under emphisize this. But it takes up a lot of window space and will be the talk of the town when I got to Fitchburg forge in. So, yes I can use the stand as is. But will make a new one that will find its way into the shop proper when the time comes. Oh, and because of the upsetting block on the Peddinghaus, is the reason for the change in design compared to the other stands shown earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 Woooooo Hooo! I presume that is your 'little' Peddinghaus inverted atop the Reflinghaus? Anvils Pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 yes, funny isn't it.. A little 275lbs Peddinghaus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyGoatLady Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 You could add my 105# Emerson on top of the Peddinghaus and make a tiny point of an anvil pyramid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 What a beast. Can't believe you even got that thing in there lol. Time to beef up the suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 On 8/22/2019 at 7:53 PM, jlpservicesinc said: On this note the old bolt holes did line up close enough on the upsetting block to use 5/8" or 1/2" size. I'll bring my mag drill to the meet in a few weeks if you bring the base and want to poke some new holes in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 15 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: Then why not just say that to begin with??? I can't read between the lines of out of context information and sarcasm is lost on me. I thought I did but I wasn't clear enough. My bad. I wasn't sarcastic, not once, overly wordy sure but not sarcastic. Makes sense about not building the stand from dimensions. You're not just fitting the base, you have custom hold downs planned and those spaces aren't something they'd have measured and marked on the drawings. Dad had me reading blueprints before I got to jr. high and he had me taking drafting classes whenever they were offered, through college even. Sometimes I forget everybody can't visualize a working drawing from written dimensions, provided they aren't too complex of course. I didn't intend a challenge and it turned into one. my bad. Jer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 Frosty it's all good. Just different pages of a book.. Really different desires would be my guess. I certainly didn't experince any discomfort with our exchange.. Hope you did not as well as I always enjoy your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 I was only concerned I'd made you feel like you needed to defend your set up. I'm good. Maybe one of these days we can spend a little time at the anvil together. Deb probably won't let me bring the Soderfors in the RV though. <sigh> Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 Little bit of fun.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 Spin the anvil...................is that something like spin the bottle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted August 25, 2019 Author Share Posted August 25, 2019 On 8/25/2019 at 6:23 PM, Frosty said: I was only concerned I'd made you feel like you needed to defend your set up. I'm good. Maybe one of these days we can spend a little time at the anvil together. Deb probably won't let me bring the Soderfors in the RV though. <sigh> Frosty The Lucky. Defend.. Yes and no.. More explain as to the reasons why I had done what it was. There are many things done today that are the easiest way to go and while it is great for many. Many can't see why I would go the xtra vs just so, so. I'm not about easy.. LOL. So end up going the little extra. I would really love a get-together. I have plenty of anvils to try out so think you would be ok with the choices. Mind you I'd love to play on your Soderfers and maybe it will warrant a visit up your way at some point as well. Chris it could be. I don't know of any other smith that has done the spinning anvil thing.. Especially with a Refflinghaus and a 275lbs Peddinghaus. Judson Yaggy thanks for the offer. Not needed really. Wish I could find a good scrap yard. I need some 1.250 plate and new for the section I want is 151.00. Kind of crazy vs scrap price. I have a bunch of cut up sections I might just weld all back together to form the base. In design stage now. If the fall meet was at Morrells I would have taken the trailer over for the NEB group to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: I'm not about easy.. LOL. So end up going the little extra. Uh huh, sometimes you go to too much extra for the results. There's a difference between working hard and being productive. Not doing a thing the hard way doesn't mean settling for so so. You're welcome in my shop any time and you can try to bounce the Sorceress out of her stand. Deb and I are going to start doing some RVing down south, maybe next year, her older son has offered to let us park it at his place when we're not on the road. I'll probably be looking for another Soderfors, I keep hearing about deals but . . . <sigh> Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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