Soliciting sanity check before I light this new forge

[picker77]

I admit to being an overly cautious old geezer, but that's how I got to geezerhood. Anyway, now that my new little Diamondback single burner has its mobile home and the gas piping and idle circuit are completed, I'd appreciate one last eyeball/sanity check from more experienced forum gurus before I actually light it up. All gas threads were yellow-doped, soap tests were done, a few minor leaks were fixed and re-tested, and a CO detector is now installed in the shop. This forge will be operated almost exclusively outside, thus the need for mobility. On really cold days, I'll just shift gears back to stock removal for my knife making.

If you see anything sketchy looking or something I might have missed, especially about the gas piping, I'd sure appreciate a heads up. Don't want my wrinkly old butt blown up. Thanks!

Oh, and I know it's tall (53" to the forge floor) but so am I. 

 

 

[Frosty]

Looks pretty good from here. The only things I see in the first couple pics are: I put the 1/4 turn shut off valve at the start of the copper tubing rather than on the burner. For safety purposes I like having it away from a potential fire from a broken fitting. 

Second thing I'd change in the first couple pics is how much you have hanging from the burner fittings: fittings, valve, copper final supply line, idle circuit, valves and fittings and the rubber hose to the tank. That's a lot of weight that could easily knock your jet out of alignment. At a minimum I'd support all that with a bracket.

However it looks like you've changed your supply circuit in the third pic. 

Nice build, well done.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Latticino]

Looks pretty clean to me as well.  I have two suggestions in concert with Frosty's:

1. Lower the copper gas supply tubing slightly below the shelf on your cart and add a piece of 3/4" plywood to cover up both the rubber tubing and the propane tank.
2. Forge doors!
3. Consider future upgrade for your idler circuit to change from manual operation to gas rated solenoid valve run by a PID controller and heavy gauge, jacketed, type K thermocouple to measure forge temperature.  Throwing that main gas ball valve manually is going to get old quickly, particularly on the "back" of the forge.

I believe that the apparent change to the piping in the third photo is just a misleading photo angle.

[picker77]

Many thanks to both of you for the helpful advice and timely suggestions!

[Chris C]

Picker77,

Good lookin' forge!  Tryin' to get mine put together.  "Doors" are no more complicated than a couple of firebricks set on end that can be scooted together or pulled apart.  Nuttin fancy.

[picker77]

LOL - now that sounds like something I can handle, Chris. I thought he was talking about some sort of physically hinged steel doors like I've seen on many new forges.

[picker77]

Frosty, while re-arranging the plumbing a little we discussed above, I discovered something I didn't know - that shutoff valve that Diamondback pre-installed at the burner is not a 1/4 turn shutoff, it's an 8 or 9 turn needle valve. Having not fired the forge, I never actually operated it - so that was a surprise. As a result, I'm not only moving the main burner shutoff down to the inlet side of the idle circuit, I'm replacing it with an LP gas-rated 1/4" quarter-turn ball valve. Cranking a valve 8 or 9 times to close it when things are on fire doesn't seem to be an efficient way to operate an emergency shutoff, heh.

[Mikey98118]

Not to mention that needle valves tend to leak after a while, because they are not intended to stop gas flow; only to modify it.

If you look at safety regulations for propane cylinders, they insist that your tank be kept outdoors, and well away from ignition sources. The only use of propane cylinders below heating equipment is in outdoor barbecues; and this is only because that arraingement is "grandfathered in".

But the most likely hazard from your equipment would come from hot exhaust gases super drying the garage ceiling...

[picker77]

I'm thinking I'd like to go to high pressure quick disconnect hoses and fittings. For example, it appears that gashosesandregulators.com has an extensive array of this stuff rated up to 250 psi, including stainless steel hoses with QD fittings up to 20' (the long QD hose remains outside, permanently connected to the tank). Although admittedly a stiff one-time cost, it seems that would be perfect for how I'd like to run this forge, namely leaving the 30# bottle outside with long SS hose attached, and wheeling the forge cart out and plugging it in to the long hose with a QD pigtail whenever I want to fire up. Otherwise, without QD fittings, strictly following safety rules, if I want to keep the forge/cart stored inside, I'd have to leave the tank outside and screw/unscrew the regulator's POL connector every time I want to use the forge. I can see that leading to wear and damage to the seals/o-rings on the POL connector, in addition to being a pain. They even sell dust covers for the fittings (similar to those on tractor hydraulics), which should work ok. Only problem of course is cost, about $140 for the 20' SS version. Gulp. Anybody using these, and if so are you happy with them?

[Mikey98118]

The problem with QD fittings is that they start leaking after a while; why go there?

[Frosty]

Zip ties are good, I didn't see them in the pics. Yeah, the 3rd pic probably doesn't show what I thought it does, the point of view had me fooled.

The reason regulator tank fittings and valves start leaking is from over tightening them, seriously they're precision fittings and valves just a light bump more than finger tight is plenty. I've been taking my regulator off tanks for 30+ years and have only replaced one O ring. If you get one with the hand tightening tank fitting you don't need a wrench and you won't over tighten it.

Seriously taking  the reg off the tank is less than no big deal. Maybe make a little shelf under a cool part of the cart top to store the reg and hose without removing it from the forge. I just roll the hose with the reg in the center so it's padded by the hose.

SS hose and fancy fittings like QDs are more show than they are advantageous. Unless you think you might drag your tank by the hose ss hoses aren't much use. You're NOT going to leave it running while you: take a walk, eat lunch, answer the phone, etc. are you? Burning propane hose REALLY stinks for a reason, you WILL notice it. A 20' hose is a much greater trip hazard than your short sweet setup is a fire hazard. Things WILL fall near the forge, people WILL take shortcuts through the worst possible path and believe me you do not want someone tripping on the hose and jerking the HOT BURNING forge off the cart. I keep the propane tank as close to the forge as I safely can and have obstructions I put in the gap to discourage traffic. 

Oh, I've ever used an idler circuit, I don't spend enough time at the anvil to need to turn it down between heats. If I'm going to be gone longer than a minute or two I shut it off, it'll be plenty hot enough to self light for 20 minutes or more and comes back to welding heat in maybe 5 minutes or so. 

That's just me though, lots of folk like their idler circuits. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning Picker,

You have factored in a lot of things, without actually firing up the forge and seeing what happens. One little thing that may come up, if your tank starts to frost up, you may want to be putting the propane tank in a pail/can of water. Water acts like a heat sink and warms up the tank. The side effect is, you have your quench tank as ballast, low center of gravity. Don't be afraid of firing it up and seeing what happens. Might as well have a couple scraps that can be warmed up and start forging (not foraging, LOL). Remember the K.I.S.S theory, it's not a theory, it's a fact.  Good Luck!!

Neil

 

[picker77]

Hmm... rethink #26..    You guys always leave me plenty to think about, and sometimes to reconsider. I do intend to run this thing outside, though, one way or another. Too much reading of the CO poisoning threads, I suppose. Plus, back in the day when I was one of several ship repair superintendents at Philadelphia Naval Shipyard, I had one of my Shop 26 guys done in by oxygen displacement down in a lower level tank. Turns out Shop 67 and Shop 56 guys were purging electronic equipment distilled water cooling lines with pressurized freon several decks above, had a leak they didn't know about, and freon sinks like a rock. Inert gas problems (or more accurately, oxygen deprivation) has held a front row pew in my mind ever since. Reading the CO safety threads sort of brings it all back again. Not pleasant thoughts. After seeing photos of all the forges being operated inside shops by IFI members, I wonder about the choices of some of our learned brethren. But as I said before, I'm old and cautious.

Thanks, Neil. I'm working on it, and I'll get there, lol.

[Mikey98118]

11 hours ago, picker77 said:

Only problem of course is cost, about $140 for the 20' SS version. Gulp. Anybody using these, and if so are you happy with them? 

NO!

A shutoff valve on the tank side of the hose connection will allow you to do the same trick, is cheap, and won't where out. The reason that quick disconnects eventually start leaking is wear on their gasket parts; a more extensive valve isn't going to change that.

[picker77]

Roger, Mikey. I have taken aboard the advice from you and others such as Frosty and have nixed the QD idea, which made my wallet very happy. Just for drill, I'm also going to change out a few 1/4" compression fittings (that was all the local big box stores had) in favor of flare types. The existing comp fittings aren't leaking (yet), but after hearing several opinions on the less than stellar reliability of compression fittings in gas applications, I thought I'd get ahead of the curve.

And while I'm wearing you guys out with newbie questions, I have a possible option on hand for forge floor material: My forge came with a standard hard firebrick split as a floor (on top of insulation, of course). But I happen to have a 14 x 14 piece of 5/8" Cordierite, from which I cut a 4-1/2" x 14" piece (photo below). I know Mikey has not said many good things about Cordierite, but if it's compared strictly to a standard hard firebrick split, would the Cordierite be an improvement? Or, as an alternative, what if I just lay the Cordierite on top of the firebrick (it would stick out each end about 2-1/2") -- Yes? No?  And last question (for today anyway), I have some kiln wash mix, so in any case should I apply it to whatever floor material I use?

Thanks and have a great Sunday!

[Mikey98118]

It's my understanding that Cordierite is not good about insulating; this means nothing when it is used within a pottery furnace, where even heating is desirable, but that and its rather high price makes it a poor substitute for a high alumina kiln shelf, or a poured floor of Kast-O-lite 30 refractory, both of which are cheaper and better at insulating.

[picker77]

Thanks, Mikey.

[Frosty]

If you already have the cordierite go ahead and use it but cut it to fit the forge, not a brick. I know I just said something different in the PM but I didn't know you already had it or it went over my head. My other post has details I'm not going to repeat. 

Just don't go making layers you don't have to, lose the brick and replace it when it's dead or just replace it now. It'll still make a good porch or door baffle. Then so will the cordierite. Cordierite is sold as a lower temp kiln shelf, just remembered that tidbit. Maybe answering questions in different places ain't so bad.

Frosty The Lucky.

[picker77]

Gotcha, Frosty. Thanks!!

[Mikey98118]

You should also advise him to use a re-emissive coating on his floor, along with it.

[picker77]

"re-emissive coating"... that would be something like ITC-100, correct? And would that be true no matter what floor material I use?

[Frosty]

Yes but ITC-100 doesn't fire hard so it rubs off over time. A re-emissive kiln wash would ideally contain zirconium flour but Plistex or Matrikote are excellent without it. They fire hard like ceramics and are pretty impervious to welding flux.

I have some Zircopax and have been thinking of mixing it with some Matrikote to see what happens. I tinker though and can't count the bad results so don't do that! Maybe if it works out for me though, I'll get back when/if I do.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Buzzkill]

I have (and still do) use propane rated quick disconnects with an integrated quarter turn ball valve.  When I decided to use those I was tinkering with a lot of different burner configurations and the QD made it much faster to change from one option to another without constantly having to reseal threaded fittings.  I am aware though that sooner or later it will start leaking and at that point I'll probably switch to a direct threaded connection.

As far as the CO goes we obviously need to take precautions.  However if you were using your forge at the entrance of your garage with the main door open it's not likely you'd ever have an issue.  You've got the detector so you can experiment a little bit.  I normally forge outside as well, but if I want to forge and it's raining or too windy I will sometimes open the garage door and forge right at the entrance.  Keep in mind that CO does not pool in low spots like CO2.  It's the same molecular weight as diatomic nitrogen which comprises most of our atmosphere.  The result is that CO tends to disperse fairly evenly throughout the nearby air.  In an enclosed place with poor ventilation this is a major problem because you most likely won't realize anything is wrong until it's too late.  On the other hand if you have good air exchange or are basically in an open air environment, the risk of CO overexposure is minimal.  If your detector is nearby and isn't triggered then you should be fine.

[picker77]

Good info, Buzzkill. You pretty much described how I'll be operating with open doors, etc. I had forgotten from my training back in the day that CO doesn't pool like some gases, which is at least a bit reassuring. Heavier than air gases, whether they be explosive or inert oxygen displacement hazards, have always caused my hair to stand on end a little due to Navy experience, years spent in a shipyard/ship repair environment, and later working for Ma Bell data systems in/around cable vaults. Heard a lot of horror stories, even peripherally involved in one or two. That stuff got my attention for sure. Thanks.

[Mikey98118]

Working with the fishing fleet, after leaving the shipyards, required us to provide our own tools. Theft became a constant problem; especially of high quality torches. So I used quick disconnects to safely allow me to keep my torches  with me during lunch breaks, etc. After  retirement, I started using the quick disconnects on my home forge. But propane doesn't disperse as easily as other fuel gases, and I had to discontinue their use. With propane, small leaks can create big problems.