JLP Blacksmith Teaching Center.

[Frosty]

Sure, post away.  I'll say so now or I'll forget. I do NOT recommend putting in a sub floor exhaust system in the whole shop. I only ever needed it in a few places: the cutting welding table and by the roll up door for vehicle exhaust. Of course you're planning a much larger and involved shop than I was so you might use more than I have.

Gozintas I use a lot most everywhere.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Fowllife]

My comments were based on the assumption that there would already be some kind of mechanical ventilation. Building design is what I do for a living, and I just happened to be working on a mechanical plan for a warehouse that day so louvers and fans were fresh in my mind. I sometimes forget to turn the switch from commercial to more home/private type construction. I'm well aware of thermal loss from different sources. A lot of times insulation type, thickness, and how it's installed can cause more heat loss then openings. On the commercial level we have to design everything to comply with the energy code for building envelope. You would be amazed at how much the details can affect compliance. If I remember right building code requires 0.5 air changes per hour but we design almost all of our buildings for 1. Oversizing fans and adding a VFD would let you dial in the air change depending on need. Like I said, my mind gets stuck on building code stuff and I'm just babbling now.

But, I digress. Point of use systems are not a bad thing, it just takes a lot of planning if your going to put them in the floor since after it's in your not moving it. If in the floor is what you would prefer that is fine, it's just not very common in a commercial application.

[jlpservicesinc]

It's all good..

""Information is gold which everyone can bank on..""

We get a bunch of snow here and cold temps.. What or which kind of insulation should I be looking for in the roof and walls.. 

I went and bought all the foam hardboard insulation for the foundation (The pink stuff in R10) and my contractor guy who is doing the site work asked what it was for.. 

I told him to insulate sub-terrain and or the part under the floor and ground surface.. He said he wouldn't bother, though it technically is the best way to do it.. 

The floor slab, once it goes in, will have insulation around the periphery. 

[Fowllife]

R-10 should be 2” which is good. I prefer running it vertically on the inside of the foundation wall from 1/2” below finish floor down 2’ with a 45 chamfer on the top edge. 

As for roof and wall insulation, there are variables. How do you plan on heating it, and what is your ideal working temperature? The usual answer is as much insulation as you can afford. With a pre-engineered metal building like you are putting up the insulation is typically installed between the secondary framing members and the siding and roofing panels. There are different options in how you can order the building that will affect What your options would be now.  In my area it used to be typical to use 4” in the walls and 6” in the roof. With the energy mandates in the current commercial building code those numbers don’t work any more though. It seems like 2 layers of 6” in the roof and 5” in the walls is more typical now. I’m assuming you have a screw down roof, we don’t use that type of roof so I’m note sure what would work for that until I do a little research. 

If I get a chance tomorrow I can try to run your building through the Comcheck program and get an idea of what would work in your area. 

[jlpservicesinc]

The chamfer on the top edge is for later use or just to ease installation of the next layer for when the floor goes in? Cement for floor goes in. which type of adhesive should I use on the top edge to bond it to the concrete? 

Heating will be a combination of affairs and ideas..    first off is wood stove, second is an oil fired forced hot air funace both of which I all ready have..   Next will be one of the outdoor mounted Heating/cooling units either by Mitsu or Bosch.. 

[Frosty]

You're right, Fowllife, point of use exhaust systems take more planning and have a raft of issues all their own. Worse on a couple scores I made mine a multi-tasker by tieing the exhaust system to the gozintas. Almost all the gozintas are capped at any given time so the exhaust flow is reasonably strong, a shop vac is more than enough to "power(?)" two and I clear spring flooding with the shop vac. 

At one point, while I was still brainstorming my shop I had the opportunity to scrounge probably 1,000' of 3.5" ID x 20' joints of steel pipe that had been dumped. I wasn't able to move fast enough or I would NEVER have used ABS pipe for the system. Buying enough steel pipe wasn't in my budget so ABS it was. Believe me I wish I could've used 4" galvy pipe but I didn't have the money.

The below ground ducting is all sloped to a low point with the idea I could keep it dry with an aspirator but the shop vac serves well enough I'm not going to add another device.

Jennifer asked about the placement of the ABS ducting, this pic didn't specify it's vertical placement in the compacted grade it just shows it's plan layout. Below is the pic in all it's confusing detail. This not only isn't the ABS in it's final vertical placement in the grade it isn't all the ABS I was laying it out prior to trenching, gluing it together and connecting the gozintas. Doing almost the whole system solo meant it's more confused than it needed to be but I don't live in an ideal world.  I think this is the only pic I have of the ABS ducting lay out, Deb just ran out said sit there so you're in the pic and took a couple. 

As much as I ride guys for documenting I did a dismal job myself. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Fowllife]

I did get a chance to run an envelope Comcheck on our building tonight. I had to make some guesses on a couple of things and just used the standard values for windows and doors. Running it with 6" in the roof and 4" in the walls it only "failed" by 4%. To get it to pass i needed either 8" in the roof & 5" in the walls, or 2 layers of 6" om the roof and 4" in the walls. I actually needed more insulation to "pass" in my location then you needed in yours, which surprised me a little. There are varuables with this program, but that gives you an idea. Using 6" in the roof and 4" in the walls would give you a decent envelope, but more is always better if you can swing it.

I’m not quite sure what your asking about the insulation. Attached is a rough sketch of what’s done in this area. Hopefully my rough sketches make sense. 

[jlpservicesinc]

Thanks Fantastic.. Thank you.  We are actually in the cold belt and most programs use Worcester or even the center of town for most figures..  we run about 5 F cooler here. 

We are halfway down the hill and we get snow while the rest of the town is getting rain..  Not sure as to the reason why.. Another neat factor is the wind in the back of the house blows south and the wind in the front blows north.. 

i think it uses a compression factor with the insulation so it gets pinched between stuff.. I'd rather spend the extra grand or 2 to have it extremely insulated than to let it be the other way around..  40X60X16' is going to be a tough one to heat no matter what.

1 Workmens door at the left front, One 12X12 garage door in the center..  the workmen's door is a fireproof door.. 

What should I look for in the 12X12 door for the best insulation aspect.  few people said the best option is a slider that I should make myself.  Make it 6" thick and insulate it all the way through.  don't really have an idea of where to start with this. 

I ran the insulation vertical. No 45 at top..  The floor will be 5" over the top of the opening in thickness

i will add more insulation once the backfill happens and pushes the stuff against the wall.  The floor won't be for a while though my guy asked if I wanted to move on it now.. 


If I do go with Concrete floor now how hard is it ot cut throught steel and 5" of concrete once everything is moved into place? 

Better off waiting? 
 

[Fowllife]

The numbers I plug in for insulation value are actually the U-value for a tested system by an insulation manufacturer for the building type and application in use. Some of the variables are in which energy codes is used and the year of release. 

As for overhead doors, there are some really nice commercial doors available right now with some great U and R values and some more effective weather stripping. I would have to look through my notes when I get back to work to give you some more specs. 

Vertically is how I would have done the insulation, I just wasn’t sure if you had enough depth to get 2’ bellow finish floor. The main key with the chamfer is being able to run the insulation as close as you can to finish floor without causing a week spot at the edge. Breaking the thermal short circuit between the floor and the wall will reduce the amount of heat transfer. 

[Forgingforfun]

Yes that is the fork I commented on, when I was first exposed to blacksmithing 45 years ago at 11 yo, dad was a boilermaker turned steamfitter, and he joined abana early on and got into blacksmithing, I never knew the level of finishing existed to refine a item  with that factory look , I thought items were made to be functional only. Some examples were... some not, it takes soooooo much more time to create, like finishing a knife to mirror finish...even using modern tools ie buffer n rouge..makes u wonder how they ever earned any money. Again beautiful work and the "rodeo" comment was  not taken in the wrong way You earn respect with your dedication and hammer time, maybe one day I can be half as good as you

[jlpservicesinc]

Hello Bill,  no offense on the rodeo comment at all.   i love when people share their experiences.

I usually try to forge as cleanly as possible. i think it was about 20min with a hand file for this piece.

Update on-site prep. 

The majority of site prep is completed. right around 1900 yards of fill brought in.. Primarily crushed concrete. 

I have demo's to do today so won't be around to compact around the foundation. I'll do it tomorrow. ") 

 

[pnut]

Coming together quickly. I'm glad for you. It's not everyone who gets to realize their dream. Good luck. Hopefully I'll get a chance one day in the future to take a class there from you.  I benefit greatly from your videos, I couldn't imagine how helpful an in person class would be. 

Pnut

[JHCC]

Lookin’ good!

[Chris C]

That's exciting stuff, Jennifer.  "Been there-done that".  My family owned and operated a 36,000 sq ft manufacturing facility.  The building was built and then enlarged 3 times.  Exciting to see new foundation going in and building going on.  The most exciting step is when the building is finally enclosed and move in day comes.  At least for me.

[1forgeur]

Going to have motorcycle parking too?  ! !

[CrazyGoatLady]

Ýou will have no shortage of students anyway, but if you had all of us on IFI that would like to learn from you personally, you'd be busy teaching for the next hundred years

[Chris C]

Amen to that CGL.

[pnut]

 

2 hours ago, CrazyGoatLady said:

you'd be busy teaching for the next hundred years

Subscription live streaming classes. The future is upon us.

Pnut

Edited August 17, 2019 by pnut

[CrazyGoatLady]

Yeah you're right pnut. I'm still caught in between"old fashioned" and the new technology age

[jlpservicesinc]

On 8/17/2019 at 8:28 AM, pnut said:

Coming together quickly. I'm glad for you. It's not everyone who gets to realize their dream. Good luck.

It was a dream created when I was 20.  Been a very long road but it's a gift of the way I think in that I always keep these thoughts in the back of my mind.   This really has several other factors involved and at this point was meant to take place.. 

I believe in predetermination. Or a road already cut.  But that is a discussion of a different nature. 

it is pretty amazing how quickly knowledge can be shared and utilized so hopefully it will be as it is to be.

On 8/17/2019 at 9:00 AM, JHCC said:

Lookin’ good!

 

On 8/17/2019 at 9:17 AM, Chris The Curious said:

That's exciting stuff, Jennifer.  "Been there-done that".  My family owned and operated a 36,000 sq ft manufacturing facility.  The building was built and then enlarged 3 times.  Exciting to see new foundation going in and building going on.

I was told years ago by a successful farmer that any venture needs to reap payback in short enough order that one won't die before this happens (paraphrasing)..  

This building will never be paid off via the work or school aspect but it will get me out of the weather and into a solid shop.   If the business becomes such that it needs expanding it will be a whole different animal with it's own life to warrant it.  

On 8/17/2019 at 9:17 AM, 1forgeur said:

Going to have motorcycle parking too?  ! !

Oh, yeah.. 

On 8/17/2019 at 12:18 PM, CrazyGoatLady said:

Ýou will have no shortage of students anyway, but if you had all of us on IFI that would like to learn from you personally, you'd be busy teaching for the next hundred years

that would be great and welcomed for sure.  the potential possibility is there.  Time will tell just how things manifest.  

On 8/17/2019 at 2:17 PM, pnut said:

Subscription live streaming classes. The future is upon us.

This for sure is a possible avenue as is DVD and interactive learning.  If and when things come to fruition only the all mighty knows.  I have found I can not predict my future nor even chance to guess any longer. 

I do get asked many, many times if I offer classes at events or demos or shows so this will open a way into this segment in an easy way. 

While teaching in the trailer is great for one student its limits the teaching of many.  Also once setup, as I'd like it to be, will be amazing and I'm hopeful that many will want to learn more than just the basics of the hammer, forge and anvil.  The sky to the skills is limitless and for myself, I'm hoping to venture into some of the artsy bits I have forsaken for simplicity and rooms sake. 

[pnut]

4 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

This for sure is a possible avenue as is DVD and interactive learning. 

I have been silently hoping for a DVD or some such thing to be released by you. I watch a lot of videos but seem to learn the most from yours. People forget to explain the why that goes along with the how. Your video format seems to penetrate my thick skull more so than others. 

Pnut

[jlpservicesinc]

I can't tell you enough how much your feedback means to me. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on the information presented. 

I personally struggle with the justification with the production of the videos when I see how others in youtube land are doing so well with followers vs my own channel and time frames and then find pause to put out more videos. 

Few realize that the videos all are filmed 1hr to 1.5hrs but depending upon how much use of the face, vs horn, vs vise there is to the edits..  So for 1 video can take 50hrs of editing.  I chose the most difficult path to produce the videos I personally would want to see or watch.. 

Anyhow,  I will produce more videos for general release there is simply no time frame as of now.. 

I do have a series on the making of Tomahawks  from making the mandrel to the finished item. But it might go to "Pay per view" or online learning type deal as there is also a twisted handle video which I was told by a few who have watched it, that it is beyond general release and more inline with DVD  or online learning as well. 

I will proceed one step at a time and though this is a " shop Build" thread the more feedback the better as this helps to steer the direction. 

Thanks again for the feedback.. I really appreciate it.   

[CrazyGoatLady]

It's nice to see your dreams coming to life like they are Jennifer. I've never been a dreamer. I've spent most of my life just trying to keep my head above water. My husband's dream is to have a full time farm. The trick is getting it to make money. That's not easy. But I've latched onto his dream because I love this life and he has the desire and determination to make it happen. Just like you've had the desire and determination to make it happen. I've learned from him that you have to keep reaching for the things that you really want or you'll never get there. I agree that only the almighty knows for sure, but we will keep on towards the goal. But anyway, the short of it is, I'm very happy for you. You're generosity and love for teaching others will come back to you. Thanks for all you do

[jlpservicesinc]

LOL. I love it.  Sharing a dream makes it all the better.   
 

I fund the blacksmithing aspect through the JLP Services Inc business.. LOL. there is no profit so whatever happens. It's just as it's supposed to be.   I do like your faith and enthusiasm. 

My kind of people for sure.  
 

[Les L]

Any updates, or is the project on hold?