JLP Blacksmith Teaching Center.

[1forgeur]

It will be fine, and so will you. Of that I am sure.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thanks for all the support..   

Little update. 

The membrane bandit strikes again.   there are no instruction on how to terminate the membrane on the top C nor how to terminate on the Irons or main frames. 

Dick L. was kind enough to come again today and help with insulation and membrane. 

The back wall frame is 10" on the girts but 8" on the frame opening.  This means there is a jog on the membrane or step up/down. there is no extra material and it has to end exactly at the side of the 10" uprights. So that 2" difference is just wide enough for the double sided tape.  Which at this point we will run out of before the liner is completely in. 

I'll have to call and beg for another roll to finish up. 

 The last photo is the Before today progress. 

It strikes me the size of the shop with that first photo of Dick standing down at the end.  He's 5'10".. 

The manlift is 8ft wide and 13ft tall. 

 

[jlpservicesinc]

Stunning day today.  Dick came over today.. 

It was an amazing day.   This morning after a few trims I got back at 10am to Dick getting there just a few minutes after me. 

I need at least 15minutes to get rolling after horses so told Dick I needed a few.. 

I grabbed a mug of tea and went out.. 

I asked where to start and Dick said " We should be able to get the insulation in and the membranes up"   I looked around and was like "Yeah"..  LOL..  As in really.  

Well he called it.. We finished up just after 5:30pm  with the last membrane..  it's installed enough where I can trim the panels and finish work.. But dang if all the insulation is in and the membranes are up for 3/4's of the building. 

I've been lax on the front wall because it has the roof over it and working on the trim connections..  Also can't finish it till the floor can go in. So, have worked on areas that can be. 

So here are photos from today.  

I love that manlift. 

I can not say enough wonderful things about the people from NEB who came out to help and especially Dick who has made a concerted effort to get things boxed in before the weather. 

I spoke to the floor guy and he can come next week or the week after.  So, I have much to get done before he shows up. 

Luckily I will find the time. 

[Frosty]

Looks cozy, for a hangar! How are you going to light it? Or is it too early to think about lighting and electrical? 

I have to disagree on one point. With your plans for a school this is the only practical way to go about it. You can't build a proper school in dribs and drabs and this building is an investment whether the school is successful or not. It's a no fooling million dollar + structure.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thanks for the support and kind words Frosty..    In my minds eye.  it will be stellar..  Where pavement meets the road is a whole different thing.   The building is being built the best I can..  LOL..  Not 1 extra piece of insulation..  If I can stuff it in somewhere I am.   LOL.. Heating and cooling of the building is one of the main concerns.. 

But also having a very presentable facility.  

Things price wise have sky rocketed over the last few years so will have to wait to see exactly how each work station comes out.  I might have to just have 1 grinding station until there is ample cash flow from students to add more equipment.  Originally there were amples funds for the extra equipment, but things have costed more.. 

I needed mastic and some SA to get more work done and it was 450.00.. Without the SA the insulation/membrane could not be finished.. And without the Mastic the trim work could not be finished. 

I'm sure you know what I mean.. 

I will be purchasing some high output LED's designed for buildings and MFG's.  

Highbay lights. 
 

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I figure I will need about 12..   3 rows of 4..   It will come out to about 1200.00 for lights.  700.00 for 2 200amp electical panels and 400amp main switch if i scrounge for the Main switch.   

About 1200.00 to 1500.00 per garage insulated door. 

It will take nearly 9 Cuyds of concrete for the floor  and then rebar.  The floor was estimated to be about 9K before covid. Maybe more like 13K now. 

The floor guy said he would do payments so when I run short I'll still be able to get the floor in. 

Field of dreams..   Field of dreams.. 

[JHCC]

12 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Where pavement meets the road is a whole different thing.

Same place where the rubber meets the tire!

 

[arkie]

I think you both need to rephrase those..........LOL

[Frosty]

I don't know Arkie, they make sense to me. They're obviously talking about a tire factory access road. What could be more clear? 

Okay, serious content time.

Jennifer: Some things themselves better to build as you go than others. If you look back on it with your excellent 20 20 hindsight I'll bet you could've had it erected once you got the site and foundations in than it has doing it yourself. 

Between my time, hiring help and equipment rental having mine erected by the company I bought it from would've been a wash and it'd be complete now. The tree took me out before I got the trim on and wired. 

What does lend itself to the do it as you can method is outfitting it. Sure it needs the important basics, elec, lights, water, restrooms, etc. but the machinery can be done as classes pay for it or you need it.

It's life getting in the way of what we wanted to do. Normal normal. 

What is, is and your is, is looking wonderful, so it takes a few years, it'll be.

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

3 hours ago, Frosty said:

They're obviously talking about a tire factory access road.

Part of which is not paved. 

[Frosty]

That part hasn't met the pavement yet has it? Well, at the end of the pavement I guess. If you step off the pavement and scratch into the shoulder a little you can find where the pavement met the road. It's right there, every paved road everywhere.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Frosty, I do really well short term with work expenditure and focus.   Projects that go on to long I start to lose focus and there are so many other things I'd rather be doing. 

 

Long term being different for different projects..  This coming up on 1 year of work. 

I honestly don't know if I could go much faster.   I certainly would do things in a different order when it comes to the trim and such and instead of having to redo things maybe get them right the first time.  So I imagine it would maybe shave off 30 or 40hrs. maybe a little more. 

In the overall scope of things the 30 or 40hrs doesn't add up to much.  Figure 6-8hrs a day for 6 days a week.  Thats what I have been putting in with a few 10hr days here or there. 

The only way time would change would be if the liner was different.  But, in reality everything is exactly the way it was/is supposed to be.   

the only thing I could really have done differently was to get the manlift working sooner.  I mean I put it off until I had no other choice but to fix it.  Had I fixed it sooner it would mean being a little further ahead now.  But whos to say.. 

I am sorry to hear about the getting hurt before finishing.   I wasn't sure of the time frame on the accident. 

So, today I was able to get some of the bays done on the liner. which means 3 side walls and 1/4 of the end wall is done. 

Knowing what I know now I might have chosen another steel building company.  
The one that is local seems pretty easy to deal with. 

So, the bottom of the insulation and membrane have to have a bracket installed (sag angle) to attach the liner to with double sided tape and the straps.  this is an example about doing things the harder way.  The SA was needed from the start but did not know of where to find some. 

Dick L. said where he got his building from so bought it from them.  Now it's tougher to install  vs no insulation or liner. 

I am just about out of double sided tape and the insulation company is throwing tude about getting more.  I need 2 more rolls to finish up. 

There are no instructions as to the upper end wall as there is a 2 " jog. 

[ThomasPowers]

Re tire factory road---part without pavement is lacking good intentions...

JLP---when can we move in!  Will you be adding a double barrel barrel stove?

[jlpservicesinc]

Well, rent might be a little high per person, but I might make exceptions if there are enough sardines stuffed in.. LOL.. 

I might do several different heat sources. I really want to wait till I have the floor in and then start to figure out things like this. 

I was thinking a double barrel stove with blower motor and shrouding to blow the air down torwards the floor and around the side walls to create a mixing effect. 

I have a few cord of wood to burn.   I also have about 60 gallons of used oil to burn so that will be put up somewhere. 

I was told to look into a Radiant infra red propane heater this way it will heat objects vs the air which means things will be nice to pick up. 


To purchase the heaters it's about 1500.00-2K plus propane.   

[jlpservicesinc]

Today I spoke with 8 people at the insulation company getting calls from a few different people in regards to getting more  tape. 

Pretty unhappy about the cost especially because I believe they made an error in figuring out the amount needed. 

The end wall has a jog in it and the double C  was not accounted for for tape nor fabric.   I do have ample fabric though. 

165.00 for 2 rolls of tape plus shipping.  The SA was 398.64 from the metal building place  and the extra Mastic was 56.00.. 

The SA and tape were insulation needed for install.

And the 56.00 was for more mastic of which I have 2 rolls left over which were for the building itself.

I learned that:  There is not much extra that is supplied which typical today it's all about the margins and lean supply.. 



 

[ThomasPowers]

Why I was wondering about a pallet stove---yes pallet not pellet!  I've wanted to build a wood stove from 2 nesting apartment water heater shells and fill the gab with sand. (Justifying the inner one so it's in contact at the top for fast heating/cooking on.) To have some thermal mass.

[Glenn]

A double barrel stove works very will - with a couple of modifications.  The second barrel is a heat recovery unit.  It will provide about as much heat as the bottom stove alone.   

Measure the skin temperature of the bottom drum, the top drum, and the chimney as it goes out of the building.  You will learn what each temperature means and how they are related.

 

 

 

[anvil]

Have you considered radient floor heat? If you do it yourself it's pretty reasonable. If you have a rough floor plan for office, storage, classroom, work areas it can be zoned and this is what makes it cost effective. It's very efficient and the best heat I've ever dealt with.  

[Paul TIKI]

I know I'm new to all this and your new shop looks fantastic.  Have you looked in to a Rocket mass heating stove.  they can be made very inexpensively, retain and re-radiate heat well and are very efficient.  I find a lot of information about them from permaculture and off grid living sites.  Not too sure about the volume you would be heating, but who knows.  A couple of 55 gal drums, some bricks and some sand and you could be toasty all winter long. Here is a wikipedia article on them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_mass_heater

If I ever get around to building my Earthbag House, definitely going to use one of these for heat.

[jlpservicesinc]

It's a large are for radiant floor heating. 

There are systems out now that use a water heater and use NG or LP which still are pretty expensive.  To setup and even with doing it myself it would be about 4500.00+ 

ideally Geothermal would be my preference with in floor and and air heat exchanger.  But this is also about 8K or more. 

for about 2K I can install the IR tube heaters and as long as propane doesn;'t sky rocket it should be decent. 

If I had ample acreage I would burn wood with in floor.. 

But at this point who's to say exactly how things work out. 

First thing is to get the floor in.    

As for Earthen stoves.. AKA rockets.  I won't be installing a lump of cement as floor space is all ready accounted for and not really any extra room.  

Floor space is at a premium..  there are some other ways to help heat a building like this. 

Solar, etc, etc.. 

Again, if money wasn't such a problem Geothermal and solar panels would be ideal. 

On that note I had to make some pintels for a fireplace crane.. 

I installed several of the SA.. This allowed to get another bay finished and installed the insulation up in the Cee but ran out of any lengths so stopped with that little opening. 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Your progress is amazing. If I were to attempt what you are doing, my wife would be scattering my ashes in the floor.

[jlpservicesinc]

IFCW.  LOL..  thanks.. That was funny.  You have done some amazing work on your own shop.  Inspirational for sure.  

I might have a few ashes scattered in the shop as we speak.  Certainly a lot of blood and sweat..  Laceration in the  palm of my right hand is still healing. 

I have 7 rolls of insulation left and just the front wall left to insulation. 

I will have some extra.. Tomorrow I will insulate the upper wall if I have time.. Lots of horses to do tomorrow. 

If not then thrusday.   I have to have the inside of the shop empty by the end of the week. 

I might have to hang the rolls of insulation from the beams while the floor is put in. 

As a note the container rental was 2K+ for 11 months or rental. 

[jlpservicesinc]

anybody have any experience putting in large slab concrete floors? 

I've never taken on a project of this size.  I did call the cement company today and they want 5K for the cement and delivery. 

If I go with rebar 1/2" X 20 at 20 sticks is 230.00..   rental of the float machine is 25.00 per day. 

If I am able to do it during the week it's cheaper then weekend. 

[anvil]

I have better advice for radiant floor heat as a do it yourself, but I've done a little crete. 30*40 was the largest. 

Take it for what it's worth. It's not a one person job. I think you are way low on your rebar. Cold weather is close. I don't know your area, but you might ask about concrete blankets. You may need a moisture barrier and some insulation around the edges. Don't forget expansion joints. That's about it for me.

[jlpservicesinc]

No freezing for another month or so 

I've done smaller projects and setup 2X6's for guides and such but won't have that option on this project. 

the walls are all ready insulated. with foam. 

Plastic needs to go down for vapor barrier before the rebar.  there are going to be a couple of open areas both for work spaces like removing or replacing water pipes and such and then was thinking a wood block butt floor for the forge area. 

If I go with block floor it would mean being able to update as time need be. 

[Glenn]

Dig and lay down plastic pipe (say 4 inch) so you can run electric, water, gas, etc.  Check codes as you may need a separate pipe for each.  This will save you a bunch of headache later when you need to get a utility from point A to point B. 

You will thank your self many times over for a bathroom and shower in the shop.  Maybe even a small kitchen.  The wash sink is a given in a shop.  How are you going to drain any water from the bathroom, shower, and wash tub sinks? 

Dig trenches and insert plastic pipe in the trench to drain off any water that may accumulate under the floor.  Then add gravel to the top of the trench.  Ask the concrete guys about a gravel or sand bed under the plastic vapor barrier to also act as drainage. 

What are you going to do about floor drains?  Definitely a long slot drain in front of the main doors.  Consider a slot drain down the center of the entire shop. 

Depending on the size of the floor, concrete is not a one or even two person job.  Moving tons of wet concrete, leveling it out and then making it smooth is labor intensive.  Doing it before the concrete starts to set up is a challenge and time critical.  Concrete does not wait for you to take a break or allow you to catch up.

 

And when you get to it, put in more electric plugs, and more circuits, than you will ever need.