jlpservicesinc Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) I prefer a longer punch for hot work typically in the 8 to 10" range. On the larger sizes I might go a tad longer. There are advantages and disadvantages to short punches /chisels held with tongs or a handle jig. Just as there are some advantages/disadvantages for long handled ones as well. If you are forging all the time you get used to having your hand exposed to the heat in use So it can be quicker vs tong held ones. Anyhow the discussion on this type of thing would take pages. Ones held with tongs does move your hand out of the way and can be safer overall but not necessarily faster.. Edited July 2, 2019 by Mod34 Split from "What did you do in the shop today?" thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 I've generally found my punches etc that are about the same length as the thumb-to-pinky span on my tong hand to be just about perfect. Maybe it matches my brain's kinesthetic sense of where my body should be, but it seems easier to position and hold tools of that length. On the other hand, handled tools and punches in tongs are definitely preferable under the treadle hammer or a striker, where you don't want your hand exposed to the heavier force of a much harder blow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1forgeur Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 I like the 7 to 8 inch range for hand-held which is all I use. Spose it could depend on how thick the hand is that's holding it. When I hold a punch my hand takes up around 5 " of it. Can get warm on the first couple of hits till I get it going where I want it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 There are many variables to consider when choosing a tool (punch) length. A hand held tool needs to be longer for more control. It is difficult to hold a 3 inch length by hand. It will be too close for comfort to any hot metal and too close to the normal weight blacksmithing hammer head when struck. The hand is say 4 inches wide across the knuckles. Add a inch for the tool to rise above the top knuckle, if you want say 3-4 inches between the bottom knuckle and the metal being punched, then you are are already in the 8-9 inch range. A good grip is essential for both stability of the tool and the point of aim of the hammer and the working end of the tool. A tool used under a mechanical hammer would want to be long enough to attach a handle and to position the tool. This keeps your hand out of harms way. The shorter tool has more stability and does not want to go off axis as much when hit with a less then perfect blow. Handles on tools used under mechanical hammers benefit from a flexing mechanism ( coil spring for instance) between the tool and the hand. Less then perfect blows are transmitted up the handle and can twist or shake the handle in the hand. No matter what length too you choose, be sure you have control of the tool and it is comfortable to hold and use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyGoatLady Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Jennifer: Thank you for your response. It sparked a great idea for a new thread. Thank you to all contributors. It'll be very helpful to the whole IFI community Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 I make my hot tools about 14". Still use a "localized quench" on the hand when needed. Cold work tools like chisels, center punches etc are about a hands length. I prefer not using tongs for these tools. Power hammer tools and treadle hammer tools are a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eventlessbox Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Yall are great. Just picked up a few old crowbars I was planning to make my first set of punches, chisels and splitters from. This is perfect timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Good food for thought, thanks. This is just one of those things I've been doing so long I just did it the way I do it. I tended to make hot tools from what was at hand and held them by hand or with tongs and dealt with it. Truth is though, I find myself laying my longer struck hot tools in the cake pans when I'm setting up for a project. The only short hot tools I grab automatically are drifts IF their straight section is longer than the stock I'm working with. I just never really thought about it and it's not something that seems to get talked about much. Having to think about what and why you do a thing so you can explain the whats and whys to students is what causes the teacher to learn more than the student. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 I have a pair of old straight pipe pliers that I use for holding short hot work punches & drifts. They give me more control than tongs and keep my tender hands away from the heat. For a long time I made all of my punches & chisels about six inches long. Lately though since my wife has been hammering hot steel we make the hot tools longer because that's what she likes and dosen't like using tongs or pliers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 I have a pair of pick-up tongs that I made a clip for the reins so that anything too short for comfort can be held securely. The punches I've made are always in the 8 inch plus range. I also octagon the body of them so they don't roll all over the place. I posted this before, but I also put them on a magnetic arm that swings out from the wall and to the left of my anvil so I can just reach up and grab or replace punches as needed. In the picture below you can see my pick-up tongs with a smaller length punch in it and clipped at the reins. Great story on the pick-up tongs, I found them in a box of junk at my favorite junk shop. I asked the owner what he wanted for them and he said he didn't know what they were so I picked them up for $2! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 2, 2019 Author Share Posted September 2, 2019 So, since this thread was split off I just recently have seen it. Anvils comment with localized cooling.. If you watch the (wrought iron hammer build video) I stick my hand into the slack tub to cool my hand off. when I was full time I could simply ignore the heat for a very long time. As with all this forging stuff, someone who is forging daily or 5 days a week will notice there are adaptions taking place physically that soon are no longer thought about.. This heat resistance thing is one of them. On this having your palm down to the work will also help with heat vs the back side or bottom of the hand where the pinky is. My hand tools for hot work are generally between 8 and 14". My cold work tools vary greatly in length depending on what they are used for. chasing tools, cold chisels, cold punches. these kinds of things have a tendency to be shorter in the 3-6 or 7" range. One thing that fails to get mentioned is the aspect of how a punch or chisel is struck with a hammer. ( And where a person is looking).. The part that should be looked at is the working end where the punch, chisel, etc, etc engages the work. "NOT" the struck end. Everyone teaches or has learned to look at the struck end and this is wrong because you need to see what is happening at the working end of the tool. How is that blow affecting the metal below it or around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyGoatLady Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Jennifer, I'm glad you pointed that out about where to look when using a struck tool. I watch the struck end and I almost hate to punch or chisel anything because I seem to miss my mark most of the time. I was thinking I'm just not very good at it or I'm using the wrong tool. But being armed with this information, maybe it'll go better. Thank you so much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 2, 2019 Author Share Posted September 2, 2019 You are not alone by any means. and I will most certainly get flack for writing it. With this said. It took me having to convince myself that the point of the tool or working end is what is looked at. then I read an Article by Starrett tool who had an Apprenticeship program back in the day and every apprentice had to be able to chip with a cold chisel completely flat. This completely boggled my mind as I had never heard of such a thing nor could anyone I knew demonstrate this to me. I then set out on a quest to better understand what I had read and started chipping until I could infact chip straight. The Starrett apprenticeship manual was amazingly detailed in the action of how it or each operation was to be correctly performed. The stroke with the hammer was extremely long which I never did master, but I was eventually able to chip a block of steel flat after about 3 months of practicing about 5 minutes a day. I must have that apprentice manual somewhere. I went through a phase when I quit blacksmithing of lending stuff out and never getting it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 I bet you were feeling pretty chipper afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyGoatLady Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 I bet she was Good information. I'll have to look that up. I haven't been wearing gloves hardly at all. I wore one on my tong hand, but now that I don't, the calluses are building pretty good. I can tell I'm more accurate because I can feel things and the heat doesn't get to me near as much. I notice when I cook I can grab stuff that normally would burn like crazy, that hardly phases me. There's an unexpected side affect of blacksmithing for you. Now if I can get more accuracy with my struck tools that'd be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 2, 2019 Author Share Posted September 2, 2019 I had such a fear-inducing thought of hitting my hand that I took it extremely easy with very slow methodical hammer strikes. I did at the manual suggested with just a 3/4" bolt in the vise with the shank locked into it. I then would proceed to hit the chisel keeping an eye on how straight the cut was. chip, chip, chip. Eventually i moved up to a 1, 2, 3 block and would work on that. Never did get it completely flat but learned what i could have at the time. Was a lot of fun and mentally was very challenging. In the manual, it said the hammer stroke rises above the head and should be struck in such a way as to push the hammer straight with as much velocity. the strike was more horizontal with a little downward angle matching the sharpened cutting edge to drive it straight. The stroke of the hammer was while standing straight up with a vise mounted about breast height or elbow height. There were a few pictures as well. Starrett used to sell super heavy-duty chipping vises that were in the 300lbs range with 8" jaws. the hammer weight was from a few oz, to 4lbs and they were all ball peens. I'll look later and see if I still have the manual. It would be fun to revisit it anyhow. Eventually, I got pretty good at it and I also learned a good deal in that if I hold the punch or chisel properly, if I did miss and hit my hand it really did not hurt the way one would think with being hit with a 4lbs hammer at full speed. Never broke a bone nor ended up with not being able to continue working at the forge. Of course, it was a huge shock when I did miss and that was more of the a mental thing instead of it actually hurting. Of course, it's always best not to hit the hand.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyGoatLady Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Oh yeah, not hitting it is the best thing! I was just thinking about that while reading. I don't know that I fear hitting my hand so much, because I have and I just kind of shook it off. I get more frustrated with just trying to hit where I want and it ends up being a mile away... then other times, it comes out good. I do better with everything if I don't overthink things. Which I'm bad about. But next go around, I'll try watching the working end and see if that helps. You've given me hope that maybe I'm not just terrible at punching and chiseling. Maybe just need to change technique Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Just now saw this thread. (I know, I'm slow..........but always curious!) I need someone to define "chipping"for me. I don't understand. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Chipping is using a cold chisel to cut away metal like weld blobs (as opposed to grinding) or cutting channels like key ways, other folks may have a better explanation. This from google. Quote Chipping is a process of removing metal from a workpiece by means of a cutting instrument such as a chisel and a hammer. This process is used when a large piece of metal has to be removed from a workpiece; this process is very labour-consuming' and is applied only in cases when the workpiece cannot be machined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 2, 2019 Author Share Posted September 2, 2019 Chipping used to be a skill set used in the pre finish step of nearly all machine work where files were the tool of the day. I did find a more recent version in my library and some of my remembrances were a little off on hammer size. This was from the 1940 version. The older manual had more information on the process as well as more information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 1 hour ago, jlpservicesinc said: and I will most certainly get flack for writing it. Okay. Boom, boom, boom, pow pow pow. ( flack gun sound effects followed by rounds exploding) I rolled a die and none came close enough to hear shrapnel whistling past let alone get hit. I'll try harder next time, maybe if there were multiple batteries? Using struck tools like chisels is an acquired skill, If a person can't reliably hit the tool parallel with it's axis they will need to look at the tool or BAD things will happen. Exercises like the bolt in the vise are necessary if you don't want to take forever and ruin a lot of stock and tools. I just searched Starret for their Apprenticeship program manual but I guess it's no longer available. I have to wonder if it wasn't part of metal shop, desk work, we had a bunch of similar exercises and tests. I've talked about filing before. I used to be good with hammer and chisel but my depth perception is wonky and my eye hand coordination is off, to compensate I have to use lighter blows and heavier hammers. Hand skills are perishable, use it or lose it applies, not to mention denting your head. About blacksmiths and touching/holding hot things. It's anyone who works close to hot stuff, we learn on a reflex level the difference between uncomfortable (ignore it) and damaging heat. Callouses allow you to work with hotter materials, conditions without injury but we're not really so much more heat resistant. We've just developed more appropriate reactions. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 2, 2019 Author Share Posted September 2, 2019 By the way, as I pointed out in another thread. Lots of the names have different definitions now. Oh and one other important aspect is the chisel or struck tool is heald nearest the striking end as possible. There are variations on this with shorter tools in cold work the hand will rest right on the object being worked on and the struck tool will be only held with a few fingers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Okay, thanks. That's simple enough even I can understand it. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 Loads of practice helps. I once was striking a chisel using a swedish crosspeen at a demo and noticed a lot of people looking at me funny---turns out I had grabbed the hammer the wrong way and had been striking the chisel without looking at it with the crosspeen end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 Lol, Ive had the same thing happen to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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