billyO Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Hello all. I hope the last couple of years have been better for you all. I'm wanting to dish out a bowl and plate to eat off of and am wondering if you'd share your opinions on pros/cons of my material choices. I'm thinking about going the traditional copper and then tinning the eating surface, but think that aluminum may be easier due to no need for tinning. Any other thoughts? Thanks, and have a great week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Why not stainless and dishwasher safe? (Or Titanium, but that's pricey...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFC Snuffy Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 As a former food service safety & sanitation instructor, I'd be reluctant to use either tinned copper or aluminum because they'll scratch easily (if using steel utensils). Those scratches can harbor bacteria if not washed & sanitized thoroughly. That being said... tinplated copper is beautiful. Are you aiming to reconstruct a particular time period? Without knowing anything else about what you're looking for, my recommendation would be for modern (lead & arsenic-free) bronze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Another question is do you want to have to polish the plates every time they are used? For display---not a big problem; for daily use they will discolour from food acids, finger prints, etc fairly fast. Tinned metals don't have much of this issue but as mentioned prior they have issues of their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted May 30, 2019 Author Share Posted May 30, 2019 Thanks all. I apologize, I guess a little more info would be helpful.... Our organization (the NWBA) has some members who have decided to provide the food for our annual conferences (pig roast, gumbo, breakfast, etc...) and I decided that I don't want to use the provided paper plates or plastic forks, so I want to make one bowl, plate, fork and spoon. I already have a damascus butter knife. I also heard rumor that there may be a competition at our October conference for the best set to encourage others to bring their own. Regarding the desire to polish after each use, it's not necessarily something I want to do, but is something I'm willing to do because these are most likely going to be used only 2 weekends a year. If the initial fabrication isn't too much more labor intensive. In other words, if using copper makes the initial dishing significantly easier, then I'm willing to tin and then polish. But if all I need to do is form the plate using sheet aluminum, then maybe that's what I'll do. 20 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: (Or Titanium, but that's pricey...) Can you cold work titanium? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 If I were to be making a plate or bowl for food I'd go with stainless. On a side note, kind of relating between stainless and aluminum, I have used mess kits while camping, both aluminum and stainless, and much prefer the stainless ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 There is a pretty solid theory that aluminium deposits are common in the brains of Alzheimer's patients. My father died from it, very uncool. Copper is very easy to dish, bronze not much harder. Brass on the other hand requires genuine skill, experience and knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Yes you can cold work titanium, (depending on what state your sheet comes in.); but hot working it is MUCH easier. Use the CP 1 or CP 2 grades and avoid the duplex alloys! You can also get wild colours by anodizing and pretty neat ones by temper colouring it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted May 31, 2019 Author Share Posted May 31, 2019 On 5/30/2019 at 6:43 AM, arftist said: There is a pretty solid theory that aluminium deposits are common in the brains of Alzheimer's patients. Good point! Thanks for pointing that out. On 5/30/2019 at 8:25 AM, ThomasPowers said: Yes you can cold work titanium, (depending on what state your sheet comes in.); but hot working it is MUCH easier. Use the CP 1 or CP 2 grades and avoid the duplex alloys! You can also get wild colours by anodizing and pretty neat ones by temper colouring it. What thickness would you recommend? I can pretty easily get some 6al4v in .026", .050" and .071". Also, what temp would you recommend working it? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 On 5/30/2019 at 5:43 AM, arftist said: There is a pretty solid theory that aluminium deposits are common in the brains of Alzheimer's patients. That was no theory there were high measured concentrations of aluminum found in Alzheimer brain tissue. It was causing quite a stir till it was noted the stain they were using to color the thin sections was aluminum based. When they changed stain (dye?) aluminum returned to normal background levels in Alzheimer's victims. If you use aluminum be sure it doesn't have dangerous alloying agents in it say lead or antimony. I'd go with stainless and make a wider bowl with a shallower rim the plate could nest in. It'll work cold with regular annealing as necessary. Electropolish will return it to shiny clean. I'd try to time it so it was nicely work hardened when I finished and not anneal it, that way you can get away with thinner stainless and not be limp floppy. A stainless cup would be more serious work than I've done by hammer though. Carved wood would be nice and a good sittin and whittlin on the porch project. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 As late as May 2018 alzdiscovery.org published a study looking at occupational and daily exposure from antiperspirant and antacids to aluminum and the correlation between Alzheimer's and early onset dementia. All sources are listed in the article. It's a horror show watching a loved one eaten away by it. Pnut I've not been able to find a conclusive answer. There's studies showing both results. Also studies showing too much OR too little zinc as a contributing factor. So the jury is still out. I worked for two years casting engine blocks from Al and Alzheimer's runs in the family. I've been looking at this for quite a while and there's no consensus. The evidence is pointing to a relationship between Al and dementia but the mechanism by which Al is contributing seems to be what the science can't agree upon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted June 2, 2019 Author Share Posted June 2, 2019 Got some 0.071" titanium plate on the way, I'll post results.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Can't wait to see how it goes. Should be good. I've never used titanium myself. Let me know how it is to work with it. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Well if you are not paying attention to my suggestion of NOT using duplex alloys then I'm out of here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Thomas, if he works it hot he should be OK, I have forged 6al4v hot and it works like butter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I was think of the reports of Flu like symptoms after hand forging duplex Ti alloys; possibly from vanadium exposure! Hot cp 1/cp 2 TI is much softer than steel under the hammer---greatly surprising many people who think it is a *super* metal and so must be good for *everything*. My Ti camp dinner knife has a break in the oxide colouring from when I got so annoyed about folks claiming Ti was so much better than steel; I took out my belt knife---san mai with a nicholson file as the edge layer and carved a curl off the Ti knife with it. I used it for an camp eating knife as it was dishwasher safe to the extreme! My belt knife has to *cut*! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted June 4, 2019 Author Share Posted June 4, 2019 I was told by another smith I know and trust (possibly incorrectly, I realize) who forges mainly titanium and he said: "if it is pure titanium or a low ally titanium like 6al4v, it should be fine to cold work. It could be easier if the titanium is heated up with a blowtorch or heat source. I think pure titanium would be the easiest/best." Thomas, are you saying that the Al content would be dangerous, that it would difficult to work or, 21 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: I was think of the reports of Flu like symptoms after hand forging duplex Ti alloys; possibly from vanadium exposure! If it's the possible dangers of using Al for eating utensils, then I also have some 0.050" grade 2 CP plate. If it's the difficulty working, I guess I'll find out the diffrerence in the CP and 6al4v If it the reports of flu-like s/s, this is the first time I'm hearing of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 What part of "possibly from vanadium exposure" mentions Aluminium? I got the warning from Robb Gunther when he discussed forging Ti at a Quad-State decades ago---it was still at the Studebaker farm. I do not know if it has been proved/disproved as I have stuck with the CP 1 or 2 alloys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted June 4, 2019 Author Share Posted June 4, 2019 30 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: What part of "possibly from vanadium exposure" mentions Aluminium? Nothing. But the prior mention of Aluminium's possible contribution to Alzheimer's makes it relevant and I was thinking that your comment: On 6/2/2019 at 6:00 PM, ThomasPowers said: Well if you are not paying attention to my suggestion of NOT using duplex alloys then I'm out of here! was referring to that. 39 minutes ago, billyO said: If it's the difficulty working, I guess I'll find out the difference in the CP and 6al4v I also have some 0.050" grade 2 CP plate available as well to use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Always in reference to Vanadium; never to Aluminium as Al is one of the most common elements in the earth's surface, (ranks 3rd!); so if it was the problem we already are hosed just from environmental exposure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Not really true. Aluminum doesn't exist in its pure elemental form naturally. It's always bonded to other atoms. As with many other substances, our bodies can be negatively affected by molecules containing certain elements while remaining unaffected by other compounds containing the same base element. Look at the difference in how your body deals with pure carbon, pure oxygen, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide for instance. One of the issues with the dietary supplement industry is that some of the "essential nutrients and minerals" contained in the capsules provided by some manufacturers are not in a form that can be readily absorbed through our digestive systems even though they exist in the quantities claimed. The devil is in the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted July 12, 2019 Author Share Posted July 12, 2019 Update on the cold work: Spent a couple hours yesterday trying to sink/raise the 0.050 sheet, and started to get some movement after moving up to my 3# hammer...time to move to hot work (and while I'm at it, the 30 ton press) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn II Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 On 6/4/2019 at 2:23 PM, Buzzkill said: The devil is in the details. I was just thinking of my great-grandmother the other day. She used to say in German "God is in the details, but the devil waits in chaos." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted September 17, 2019 Author Share Posted September 17, 2019 Hi all! Sorry, but I forgot to post an update...here's a link ti how they turned out: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 On a side note for people playing with dishes, Here is a video of tinning the surface of a vessel Video quality is not great but this guy makes it look pretty easy. Always want to get around to trying tinning like this just to see how much skill it really takes. Pure tin is readily available and fluxes for this are not a big deal. Not long ago, most of the stuff in the commercial bakery industry was still tin plated steel so it can't be too bad a surface. I still get calls from the old school bakery guys once in a while asking for "tinned" steel though it's no longer available from us--only stainless now on our stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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