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Looking for Ribbon Burner recommendations on size and placement.


arctic_canoe

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Hi Gang. 

I've done as much reading on this subject as I can, but I would like some opinions. This is my first gas forge build. My plan is to go with a Ribbon Burner Feeding  a 15" long section of a 100 pound propane bottle encasing 3" of kaowool, Rigidizer, Castable followed by ITC 100 or similar products. So far this is a pretty standard building practice. The interior of my forge should be around 8" x 15" give or take an inch and about 750 cubic inches. Okay down to business. What size Ribbon Burner do you all think I need ( I'm thinking a 8" or 10' Pine Ridge Burner) and side or top mount? 

I'm open to all opinions.

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Welcome aboard, glad to have you. I'd offer an opinion if I knew anything about the capacity of Pine Ridge Burners. I know they're expensive. About the best advice regarding your question is contact Pine Ridge Burners and ask them.

A couple things to think about before you spend big bucks. That's a monster of a forge and it's going to burn a lot of propane.

Beyond fuel economy is the nature of steel and the human capacity for swinging a hammer. You can only forge maybe 6" and a bit, maybe, well enough to keep the crystal structure refined. (limit grain growth) The longer steel remains at critical temperature the larger the grain rows and more brittle it becomes. What looks like grains of sugar in steel that's had this happen are the crystal boundaries. These are the flat faces of crystals and it's these that make weak connections. The larger the faces the weaker the bond and more brittle.

What else is happening to steel that's HOT? Why the carbon at the surface in contact with air is burning out about as fast as scale forms. This adds up to loosing a few thousandths from each side of your stock to scale every time you take it out of the forge and what surface is left is lower carbon steel.

If you were making a heat treat oven you'd be asking different questions say, about: temperature control and metering systems, etc. 

A good size forge to learn the craft runs about 300-350 cu/in and is heated by about a 3/4" naturally aspirated or gun (blown) burner. Think a rectangular inside of about 6" x 6" x 9" with openings at both ends you can close to a degree. You can work longer stock by passing in back and forth through the forge using the front and the pass through. 

I'd like to be more help with your question but unless someone here knows I'm afraid you'll need to ask Pine Ridge.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thank you Frosty for your response. It didn't sound that big in my head. So in reality I could cut the length down a fair bit. By the time I flatten the floor it will be 6" wide and 6.5" to 7" tall.

Keeping in mind all the coating that I will need to applied. What is the max length I should go?

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If you want to go with a ribbon burner, consider a forge from a five gallon propane cylinder or paint bucket. There are also minimum interiors if you want a typical ribbon burner not to overheat. Follow the well worn path that have put smiles on so many other faces :)

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In reality I didn't take into count the isolation on the back of the bell/door or the raised floor to make it 6" so really it will be 6" wide at the floor, around 12" long and 7.5" at the widest point of the curved walls. Is that to big? I sectioned a 100 pound bottle so I could get 3" of kaowool inside with all the toppings. Decommissioned 100 pounders are free if you know were to get them.

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This is a case where, "if a little is good more must be better," is a good way to spend lots of money for an insignificant return.

You're making a mistake most of us have made breaking into a new craft. You're trying to design the perfect tool without knowing enough. This is your FIRST forge and you have it designed already? How much time do you have working in a gas forge? How much time do you have at the anvil? Your last post says you don't know a good size and probably not even what the important numbers are.

I don't do basic math for guys who won't or can't for themselves anymore. I came as close as I'm going to in my last post. How about going back to Forges 101, looking at the most commonly built propane forge and using a proven design. Something developed by guys who have been using the things and tinkering with them for decades? 

We don't mind helping folk get going, heck I enjoy it but I've become tired of having the same conversation over and over and over.

How about putting your design ideas aside till you've done some proper research.

Frosty The Lucky. 

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On 3/5/2019 at 5:38 PM, Frosty said:

This is a case where, "if a little is good more must be better," is a good way to spend lots of money for an insignificant return.

You're making a mistake most of us have made breaking into a new craft. You're trying to design the perfect tool without knowing enough. This is your FIRST forge and you have it designed already? How much time do you have working in a gas forge? How much time do you have at the anvil? Your last post says you don't know a good size and probably not even what the important numbers are.

I don't do basic math for guys who won't or can't for themselves anymore. I came as close as I'm going to in my last post. How about going back to Forges 101, looking at the most commonly built propane forge and using a proven design. Something developed by guys who have been using the things and tinkering with them for decades? 

We don't mind helping folk get going, heck I enjoy it but I've become tired of having the same conversation over and over and over.

How about putting your design ideas aside till you've done some proper research.

Frosty The Lucky. 

I apologize if I offended you. I had no intention of over stepping any boundaries. I had no idea how much a few inches would make. Just to clarify this is my first propane forge as stated in my first post. I've swung a hammer be it not for twenty years. It only says newbie under my name because this is my first time posting. 

I just wanted to get a head start on ordering my burner and other components. This stuff is takes a long time to ship to Canada and is expensive as I'm sure it is to Alaska, That is why asked for some opinions on ribbon burner and placement.

Again sorry if I offended anyone.

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13 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Actually, I think shipping to Canada is worse :angry:

It is. lol  Shipping across Canada is bad enough. We get killed on brokerage fees at tne boarder. It's almost cheaper to ship from US to Canada than across Canada. 

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Arctic,  i have done the same thing your doing, ive been forging now for 3 yrs, i always read through these forums and thought well i can tweak this,  or try this, andhave spent more money then i probably should have and have lost more time tearing down and redoing my forges... Ive learned alot actually paying attention to what Frosty and Wayne and a couple other notables have said and taught, Id follow there advice andspemd the money once instead of 4 times like i have, btw,  here is my ribbon burner , i made myself, cost me 13 dollars US to make. 

20190130_214839.jpg

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Oh you didn't offend me, I came on too strong . . . again. <sigh> We just hear very detailed plans with virtually no basis in reality so often I tend to draw incorrect conclusions on too thin evidence. It's a once bitten twice shy thing. 

A person needs a basic handle on a craft to even know what to read about and trying to design equipment to last a long time usually means serious over builds where it doesn't matter. I have and heck use forges so over designed they're sillyness incarnate.

I came across poorly and admit it. I only meant to offer my mistakes so you didn't have to make them yourself. Make some new mistakes and share them please.

Frosty The Lucky.

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On 3/9/2019 at 10:38 AM, AlphaDog Forge said:

Arctic,  i have done the same thing your doing, ive been forging now for 3 yrs, i always read through these forums and thought well i can tweak this,  or try this, andhave spent more money then i probably should have and have lost more time tearing down and redoing my forges...

AlphaDog I honestly considered building my own Ribbon Burner it's well within my wheel house. But the though of the whole Chicken verse Egg argument. How do I cast a burner that I cant cure to 1000 deg F without a forge and a burner. I hear there is a castable that cures at oven temps but I don't know what it's called and who makes it. The nice thing about living in energy sector of Canada, the refractories supplies are easy to come by. AlphaDog How loud is your Ribbon Burner? This may sounds silly but I like to listen to the radio and have a conversation while I work. lol

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On 3/9/2019 at 11:38 AM, Frosty said:

Oh you didn't offend me, I came on too strong . . . again. <sigh> We just hear very detailed plans with virtually no basis in reality so often I tend to draw incorrect conclusions on too thin evidence. It's a once bitten twice shy thing. 

Frosty I've worked with my hands my whole life and I practice time vs money. I can spend the money on the right tool for the job or I can spend time and labor XXXXXXX around trying to get the job done. In the end I have the right tool, and the job get done quicker each time I use it. Buy once cry once. That said know I need to change my approach on this tool/forge. This is why I tend to over build things and for the most part I'm OK with that.  

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Well dang! I was really hoping someone would have actually given an idea as too answer the op's original question. I have  done so much reading I can no longer get my eyes uncrossed. I've been forging for 34 yrs making knives and ornamental ironwork and at present, my damascus forge has an interior dimension of 16x9, and very well insulated, using T-rex burners and does very well, but does go through the propane, and have been looking into making a ribbon burner for it hoping to eliminate hot spots, and save on propane. In the last few years the billets I've been making have increased in size so going smaller is not in the cards. Didn't mean to hijack a thread, my apologize to the op, but if anyone could help me out, and maybe the op, I'd be most greatful! I thought I'd also mention that I'm absolutely awful at math, so figuring formulas is a serious issue for me. Wes  

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Which gas jet are you using in the T-Rex?

lots of folk seem to go for the biggest jet available, thinking more gas = hotter. It’s not quite that simple and in many cases a smaller jet will get hotter and use less gas. We tend to want to burn rich/reducing to reduce scaling in the forge, but going too rich reduces flame temperature. It might be worth investing in a set of mig tips in the next smaller sizes and giving them a try. It’s not guaranteed to improve matters, but it is cheap and the odds are pretty good: It’s certainly a lot cheaper in time and effort than building a ribbon burner and a couple of hours should tell you whether it improves things.

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Viking, I think it is just hard to give a concrete answer to that question.  I know next nothing about blown ribbon burners but I know they are highly adjustable and one 8-10 inch burner would probably suit your need...but, like I said, it’s hard to know unless you experiment.  You may do well to check out commercially made furnaces for glass blowing and see what size burner they use on a furnace with similar size to your forge.

If you are planning on using Frosty’s design for an NA ribbon burner you will probably need two.  Go check out the sticky post on the topic and, in the later pages, you will see that people experimented with square and round version with good success.  Either way, I don’t think anyone has heated a forge that large with one so you will be in the experimental zone.

If math isn’t your strong suit sim0,y use the internet to your advantage and google for a volume calculator.  All you have to do is input your dimensions and it will do the hard work for you.

Finally, I think people didn’t answer the original question exactly as you had hoped because it turned out not to be the right question.  The question should have been, “What size forge should I make if I want to use a ribbon burner?”  You may have need for a massive forge but most people don’t.  I have been in the shops of two different FIF winners who are both professional bladesmiths and they both used forges that were pretty modest in size....and one of them was making massive billets for swords using a Nazel 4B and fluxless welding.  Okay, it wasn’t truly fluxless, they were smoking the welded up billets in kerosene.

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DANG! I believe I've made a hash of my "contributions" to this thread. 

I've found with my tinkering and two finished ribbons the original burner to forge volume is pretty conservative. Seems a multiple outlet burner will bring a larger volume to welding temps. I don't know what the MOB (Multiple Outlet Burner) ratio is though, it'll take a lot more samples to even interpolate with reasonable accuracy.

If you are going to use a 3/4" Naturally Aspirated burner as the base size then: one each will bring 300-350 cu/in to welding temperatures. This rule of thumb ratio gets a LITTLE better with increased volumes.

I'd be comfortable using two 3/4" MOBs in a 750 CID forge.

I haven't experimented with how long you can make a 3/4"er. So long as the # of outlets does't exceed what the "Inducer" can supply it should work. It'll probably take some thought and experimentation to evenly distribute the FAM (Fuel Air Mix) in the plenum for even flame characteristics over the outlets.

In other experiments (than NARB ) I haven't had much success making manifolds. I think I'd try making a large plenum so the flow has to even out to fill the volume. That's just a thought and I haven't experimented with it.

I cast the burner blocks in Kastolite 30 and use crayons to make the outlets. I wrote up the what, hows and whys in the "NARB LIVES" thread. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Arctic,

If I may chip in, there are reasons for a long forge and for a shorter forge.  The one thing missing from this equation is: What are you intending to do with the forge?  Knives? Swords?

Long forge is used primarily for heat treating long objects (like swords).  It takes a lot more gas, and so is more expensive to run.  In such a forge you want a lower even temperature, so a ribbon burner is appropriate, but you want an oversized interior (to facilitate  the lower temp).  Ribbon burners also have difficulties running at low pressure, they tend to backfire - but if it's forced air, you can run them extremely reducing to cut down the temp.

For forging regular knives and such, a 8-10" long forge is great (5 gal tank or paint bucket as Mickey said).  More efficient on gas, higher temperatures.  Put a small opening at the back so longer blades/swords can pass through and you forge them a section at a time.

As to the length of the ribbon burner, leave a couple of inches on either side of the forge.  For a 8" forge a 5" long burner works (since the holes start 1/2" from the edge of the burner that leaves about 2" on the front and back).  For a 12" forge, a 9" burner is good.

I've got a 12" interior long forge with a 7.5" diameter interior (with flat bottom).  It works great with a 9" ribbon burner, forced air.  Problem is that it freezes up my propane tank when I'm doing welding.  I've modified the setup to allow two tanks to be pigtailed together so it runs on both.  It's hard to get cool enough for heat treating.

Dan R

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Thank you Dan R for your input. By the time I insulate with 3" of wool my forge will the same size interior as yours. I was originally thinking a single 4"x8" burner but I started second guessing myself down to a 4"x6" with 23 ports and 33 ports for the 8".My goal would be to get back into general Blacksmithing and progress into knives. I do stock removal now. Now I'm second guessing myself again maybe I should stick with the 4"x8" according to Pine Ridge the 4"x6" will get me to temp.

Edited by Mod30
excessive quoting
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