AdamTheSaint Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 A few things different. One is easily fixable, I believe I need larger MIG tips , .025 is what I had handy so I used it. Second is, in my quest to reduce internal volume inside the forge to maximize forge welding capabilities per burner/cubic inch... I should've made the chamber bigger initially. I think I'm gonna have exhaust issues, maybe. I need to go ahead and get the door worked out. Think I'll cut a slot into the top of the bottom outside ring on the keg big enough to accept a piece of kiln shelving and slide one in for the door. I need to consider working out a porch also. It took about 45 seconds in the forge for that piece of rebar to be easily bendable. What say you? 3A94CCD9-F9FA-486B-BA9E-79CF2B062667.MOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I'm getting "unsupported format" for the file, running Windows 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I get file error message after the long download. How about some still pics? I can see what I need, zoom in, take my time to evaluate what I'm looking at. Not have to watch jittery vids and (oh I HOPE not, hear bad music or the burner's overwhelming roar) I usually mute videos. Now I have to go try to convince my computer to delete this dead file from ALL the different places it saved it. Still pics please. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTheSaint Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 6D307F41-A6B2-4B47-AD6C-5AED69C702B9.mp4 Edited February 21, 2019 by AdamTheSaint Adding stills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I think you're correct. On the other hand, you're here now; you might as well play around with the forge, before you go tearing it down and rebuilding. What happens when you turn the gas pressure down enough to stop the external flames? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTheSaint Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 Turning the propane down had little to no effect in that regard. What you are seeing is around 5psi lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 And what happens when only one of those two burners is running at that pressure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 May we have a couple clear pics of the burners themselves? Something I'm seeing is jogging my elbow but I don't know what. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTheSaint Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 This is 5psi with only the front burner running. My infrared thermometer reads between 885 and 1,770 , depending on where in the forge I put the dot. Here you go frosty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Is that degC or degF? What exactly is it about the way it performs that you are having issues with? You have Dragons Breath. This is indicative of a pretty rich mixture. NOTE: This is not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing: Think of it as just a thing. In general we want to run a reducing atmosphere, which is by definition a rich mixture, in our forges. I don't know many smiths who have run lean mixtures, which are by definition Oxidizing, but the few I know who have very quickly looked for ways to make them reducing. The flame temperature varies with the air:fuel ratio and the maximum flame temperature occurs at or near the stoichiometric ratio. On the rich side of stoichiometric, which is where the Dragons Breath indicates your burner to be, increasing the jet size will further richen the mixture and reduce the flame temperature. Unless you want to run at lower temperatures for Heat Treat, it seems very unlikely you need a bigger mig tip. What size is the burner tube? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTheSaint Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 So the "excessive" flames put of the front and rear aren't necessarily a tell of a problem, just telling me that the atmosphere inside the chamber is at least ideal, if maybe a tad small? The mixing tube is 3/4" x 8". Really, I was only concerned about the dragons breath and if it was a problem. I'm happy as can be with the temp inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTheSaint Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 Oh, it's deg(F) . I apologize, I don't often post on international forums, the main forum I post on is ar15.com so I forget my manners from time to time when I speak and forget there's a whole other world that uses different units of measure. I definitely don't wish to lower the temp, so increasing the mig tip is out. I suppose I could adjust the injectors to be closer to the air intake and not so near the moving tube, which would lean it out a bit and perhaps lessen the dragons breath? My only concern with the dragons breath being this intense is making an unnecessary safety hazard for my son using the forge, however it shouldn't be a huge deal so long as he follows the basic safety rules under my supervision. I also suppose I could chip the floor out a bit and remove the half bricks I used, thus creating more room inside the forge. I think the k26 I cut in half and used there are unnecessary. That then, in theory, would cut some dragons breath down , correct? The purpose of this forge is knife making primarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Sorry about being slow replying, stuff you know. <sigh> I see couple of things: First dragon's breath CAN tell you a lot about what the flame is doing but just being there doesn't mean much if anything. The flames from your forge show it burning way rich though. Tim is right WITHIN REASON, however a rich flame is producing excess CO (Carbon Monoxide) it's what makes it reducing. Mine run SLIGHTLY rich. Neutral is what most folk aim for, stoichiometric means all the material in a reaction is consumed completely. Oxy and fuel in this case. It looks like you have a pretty small diameter forge chamber so back pressure is a major factor and with two burners running makes it worse. Too much back pressure inhibits induction so the burners can't draw enough combustion air. Changing psi settings won't make much if any difference. The close up pic in the intake shows the jet off center. This might be a trick of the camera but the single most important bit of construction precision is keeping the jet centered straight down the mixing tube. This is a major induction killer. The last is a minor detail but has it's effect. The length to diameter ratio for mixing tubes is L= 8 D. If D= 3/4" x 8, L = 6". A too long mixing tube inhibits induction through friction. So, I see 3 reasons your burners aren't burning clean and hot. Forge volume is probably least on the list, once you get the burners working right it may go away as an issue. However if you were to reline it with Kaowool and a hard refractory inner liner to a larger ID, you'd be stylin. Leave this for last if ever. Two properly tuned 3/4" burners will reliably bring a 600 - 700 cu/in forge to welding temp. I think the biggest issue is misaligned mig tip jets. If they're as far off center as that one looks, it's a wonder they burn that well. Lastly 6" mixing tubes will help. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 hours ago, AdamTheSaint said: I was only concerned about the dragons breath and if it was a problem Propane forges produce a lot of CO Carbon Monoxide as Frosty said. I notice your forge is in a garage when running from the pictures. It would be wise to move it outside when running, especially if the garage is attached to the house. Another safety item should be in use, a CO detector alarm, CO poisoning is nothing to mess around with, adequate ventilation is a must. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTheSaint Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 Fantastic. The mig tip is slightly off center, not as much as it appears in the pic, but it was. The jet tubes aren't set in stone, so to speak, do I can play with that easily, and I'm currently searching for a way to actually make it set in stone, so to speak. I'm thinking of using JB weld to get them to stay where I set them, seeing as the set screw idea is ok at best in theory in my experience. I'm going to cut the mixing tube two inches also, hopefully these will cure the problem. If I need to, then I'll just chip the floor up, cut the keg opening on the bottom a couple of inches lower, and then just put the castable refractory over the ceramic wool itself and not buffer the two with the brick as I did here. This picture I'm including is how everything looked before I used the HyMor. I only used maybe a half an inch in thickness of the HyMor, however I just didn't think that it would eat up as much of a space as it did. I'm only running the forge in the garage for testing, with fans on, door open, fire extinguisher within arms reach, and for maybe 2-3 minutes. I agree whole heartedly that it shouldn't be run in there at all, and for actual forging use, it will be in the backyard, where half the yard is concrete slab, next to the metal gazebo. No excuses for safety however, I shouldn't run it in there at all and knew better. Complacency kills. I'll update this soon and let y'all know how its running. Appreciate you guys, and this site, so incredibly much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Three set screws will let you adjust the alignment of the jet and lock it down pretty hard. 1/2" of hard refractory should provide enough armor for your Kaowool, the split K 26 bricks will make much better thermal baffles for the openings than a floor. Mikey talks about how thermal baffles work in the "Forges 101" threaad, I'm a convert. Do you have a flare on the end of your burners? Check out what Mikey says about them in the "Burners 101" thread. Mike wrote the book on home made burners some years ago. When you get close only make ONE change at a time and test. If you start making more than one you'll never know what did what and some combinations can have unpredictable effects, you're guessing and counting on luck. Make sense? Keep us in the loop please and give a shout if you have questions. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTheSaint Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 Well, I drug it back out and cut down the mixing tubes to 6 inches, got the jets aimed perfect, but it was just bothering on how little space I was left. As I'm taking pictures to share with the class of how much I managed to get my dragons breath down, plus the much nicer shade of blue it was, I took a pic of the jet while it was running. The first pic here is that picture... Um, that red on my weld ain't supposed to be there... So I go back to the front, still bugging myself about the room inside... Here's that pic... Something ain't right... now it makes sense. Where I thought I had only added a half inch of the castable refractory, I added over an inch... And it shifted while setting, making the flame kiss the refrac before it even got into the chamber, heating up everything wrong. The flame was firing off an inch OUTSIDE the forge. so I tore it out. Question, can I reuse the kaowool that's inside here, I've got enough tucked away that I never used to wrap a smooth layer around everything you see here, but I'm not sure if it's ok to reuse this bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 If it isn't vitrified / burned you can reuse Kaowool though it's harder to get smooth. You ARE wearing a respirator aren't you? The ceramic fibers can lodge in your lungs and cause permanent damage like Mesotheleoma. Have you used a rigidizer? If not next time for sure it really makes for a better forge liner. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTheSaint Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 Yes sir, I surely am wearing a respirator. Both my grandfathers died of emphysema, plus two uncles, and watching it was horrible. Bad enough I smoke, but I surely don't want to increase the chances with this stuff. I used silicon silicate as a rigidizer, but under the weight of twice the amount of castable I had planned for, it just didn't do enough. Gonna use chicken wire, maybe even aluminum foil, to see if that don't help keep it all in place along with the rigidizer, before I put the castable refractory on. I'll get everything smooth with this final wrap of wool. At least I know what I did wrong. Stayed tuned, round two is where I whip it. I believe this is gonna be a fantastic forge when done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTheSaint Posted February 26, 2019 Author Share Posted February 26, 2019 Haven't fired it up yet, gotta take care of the burner ports inside the chamber, but I think I should be golden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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