Got my Devil Forge 2 burner in 20 days early

[Mikey98118]

Frost,

You're right; I've never seen this stuff either; I would say "yuk," but this manufacturer has done a good job of coming up with good solutions over the last two years, so I will wait to see how this new twist turns out

[louspinuso]

Mikey, this is the stuff they sent me and it did soak into the wool fibers though I don't know how deeply.  

[louspinuso]

Frosty, just went through that posting and I see that kast-o-lite is made by the same manufacturers as the greenpatch and seems to have quite similar properties with the exception that greenpatch is sold ready to use.  Based on the expected temperatures/humidity over the next couple of weeks, I think I'll let it cure for about a week when I put it in my oven cold and start at the lowest setting, which is about 175, and then go an hour at a Time raising the temp up to 500.  After that I'll put the burners on and adjust slowly till it appears that vitrification occurs (I suspect I'll see glowing orange on the inside at that point). 

You guys are full of great info. Thanks so much

[Frosty]

I noticed HWI listed Kastolite too but I've seen it listed by other companies like they make it. I don't know who actually makes it HWI may just carry it in bulk. I just don't know. 

The Greenpatch I used comes in a 55lb. sack as a dry powder, it mixes just like Kastolite at close to the same water%. That leaves me with no experience regarding the Greenpatch you're using so add a large pinch of salt to what I think. 

Premixed is(or was) typically called "plastic rammable" refractory as it's pre-wet to a plastic consistency. This precludes it being a "Water setting" compound or it'd set in the bucket, the stuff MUST dry instead. Do NOT follow my previous advice for curing it does NOT apply. Not knowing specifics of this product I'd treat it like ceramics, eg. dry thoroughly, Bisque fire then finish fire. About the same process you outline.

It's at times like this I'm reminded there are literally thousands of refractory products available, some so similar as to be indistinguishable and others totally different in all aspects. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

[Mikey98118]

Unfortunately the kind of ceramics text that are really helpful sells for several hundred dollars a copy

[Frosty]

2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Unfortunately the kind of ceramics text that are really helpful sells for several hundred dollars a copy

That's what public libraries are for. ILL if there isn't a copy in your local branch. 

I wasn't speaking of specialized information but to the general drying and firing characteristics of pottery clay. Ceramic applications could be more informative though. I liked throwing a little mud but not enough to take up pottery, it reminded me of metal spinning so I threw a little.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Mikey98118]

It is worth a try; thanks.

[louspinuso]

Frosty,

Good point about the curing.  I have been trying to do some more research on this Greepatch 421 ready mix, and the best I could guess is that the moisture in the premix is actually a special type of water glass made of "silicic acid, sodium salt", of which the MDS reports that it contains between 2.5% and 10%.  This would explain why it doesn't cure in the bucket (though it might dry out).  Additionally, the PDS lists only 0.1% Lime, which doesn't sound like enough to cause much of a curing action, leaving me to believe that what we have here is something that needs to be dried (which is why I suspect they recommend the 100 degree F per hour method) and then fired hot.

If I knew I'd have to learn so much chemistry before prepping a forge, I'd spent more time reading about the properties of ceramics and cements, but then I'd be another 2 or so years out before jumping in.  Interestingly enough, I first became interested in building a forge/foundry around 2012, shortly after watching an episode of James May's Man Lab where James May melts aluminum in a cheap homemade foundry and casts it into a lemon squeezer.  Before that moment, I never thought it was possible to get (useful) metal hot enough to change properties in a home environment.  6 years later I thought I had done enough research to get a premade forge up and running, turns out, I was wrong .

I've also attached a photo of the forge I took this morning (Tuesday 2/19) where you can see that the bottom center is still damp.  The current humidity is 89% so I'm sure I might just hang an incandescent bulb in there (60 watt in there I think should do) to help finish the drying process.  Based on this, I'm guessing I have WEEKS before the Greenpatch is dry enough to bother sticking in the oven.  I'll keep you all posted on how it goes.

 

Mikey,

I'll go renew my membership to my local library and see what they have on textbooks for ceramics.  It's not that I don't think they'll have anything useful, it's just that I don't think I have enough of a background knowledge in ceramics that cracking any of those books would be very helpful.  Most likely the soonest I'll be able to check that out will be on Wednesday afternoon.

[louspinuso]

Eventlessbox

In answer to your question about the burner ports, the OD is 48.55mm (or 1.91in) and the ID is 42.22mm (or 1.67in).  The depth of the port tube (on the short side on the outside) is 46.15mm (or 1.82in).  I didn't get a very good picture of that measurement.  I didn't measure the depth on the inside because I'm not sure if you'd want the depth of just the steel, to the end of the KAOwool, or to the IR liner I'll be adding "soon".

Warning, these measurements were taken with a cheap caliper.

I also took various measurements of the burners as well.  Let me know if you're interested in seeing those.

[JHCC]

22 hours ago, Frosty said:

I noticed HWI listed Kastolite too but I've seen it listed by other companies like they make it. I don't know who actually makes it HWI may just carry it in bulk.

The MSDS for Kast-O-Lite 30 lists HWI (Harbison Walker International) as manufacturer.

[Mikey98118]

7 hours ago, louspinuso said:

'll go renew my membership to my local library and see what they have on textbooks for ceramics.  It's not that I don't think they'll have anything useful, it's just that I don't think I have enough of a background knowledge in ceramics that cracking any of those books would be very helpful.

So far, I have found ceramics--as material science--to be just as tough a slog as learning steel work was; and just as rewarding

[Frosty]

Don't sell yourself short here Lou, you most certainly are ready to make this forge ready for use. Just because you like to know what's going on with what you're working on rather than just following directions or advice from some guy on the intertoobs, doesn't mean you are somehow less than ready. 

Asking questions has made me look things up I'd taken for granted from reading about . . . maybe a few years ago. Turns out I'd read info on different things or mis-remembered other stuff. I'd never even thought about plastic refractory chemistry and now I reading about silicic acid. It's easy to see how it bonds the refractory once heated. 

You are really going to fit in here, we need more scientific thinkers! 

One last point though. While it's fun delving into just what the why of how means for most everything we do at the anvil a working handle is  plenty to get going. A person doesn't have to earn a degree in metallurgy to make excellent knives. Doesn't hurt and eventually a blade maker will learn quite a bit but you can still do well by following the directions.

I'm just saying don't lose sight of the goal for all the cool stuff.

Frosty The Lucky.

[louspinuso]

Mikey,  I'll take your word on that .  I'm not ready to crack open another subject yet.

Frosty, I understand what you're saying, and I completely understand that this is a personal problem that I have.  I'm literally the sort of person that "misses the forest for the trees" is almost always an accurate description of my state of being.  I get bogged down in details that suddenly bring me to an almost standstill until I'm familiar enough that I'm ready to move on, whether I need to know that much detail or not.  I have gotten better in my old age and do sometimes just jump right in and do it.  It's something I had to force myself to do whenever I needed to learn a new programming or scripting language (my primary job is in IT and this happens more often than you can imagine).  So while in the 80's and 90's I could've run you through every option of every compiler for every language that I was using, now I just look up what I need when I need it and just use it.  Now if I want to learn a new programming language, instead of breaking out a book and studying, I find a problem that needs a solution and just jump in with the new language looking up the details as I go.  I just need to learn to do this with more things.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Lou 

Ok, so I finally finished narrating and editing the video where I apply the rigidizer to the forge.  If you want to see it, here is a link to the video.  Video quality is better, but I still need to work on lighting and audio.  

Thanks guys,

Lou

[Mikey98118]

I just saw the second video and it answers a couple of questions.

There are three kinds of rigidizer (that I know about). the most common choice is colloidal silica in water (fumed silica is one source for colloidal silica) There are also two kinds of alumina based rigidizer that I have see before (yous makes three): colloidal ($$$), and  what I suspect is nothing more than high alumina refractory sans grout (economical). Colloidal alumina can run along refractory fiber by capillary action, just like colloidal silica does. This process leaves a rigid but light blanket with about the same insulation value as before coating. The refractory version is formulated to penetrate ceramic fiber somewhat, and to leave a solid coating on the blanket's surface. How well this will work out, I haven't a clue; but it should provide a rigid surface for your final coating to rest on, to help prevent cracking in the hot-face layer.

[louspinuso]

Mikey,

I'm guessing mine is the economical variety.  I touched some of the portions of the encapsulated wool this morning and if I apply pressure I can feel some "spring" under neath it (I feel like I can easily crack this if I press too hard) so I'm hoping that the IR lining I add will help, though I wonder about how it will affect the coating I currently have on the wool.  Will the weight cause it to crack?  Will the newly introduced moisture help it lock with the current rigidizer or will it cause more of a slippery surface? Just things I'll have to figure out as I go along.

The other questions I have is just how thick I should go with this.  My initial thought is to set the whole thing upside down (burner ports down) and put a 1/8" to 1/4" (3mm to 6mm) thick layer down and wait for that to at least set mostly.  Then build my way up the sides slowly until it's mostly up the walls and flip the whole thing back right side up and apply that last center portion and then place the 2 firebricks that become the floor directly on top of that while still moist, hoping they will act like a sort of reverse keystone to keep things from sliding down.

Worst case scenario, I'll just do several thinner skim coat layers allowing it to hold itself up like plaster and just keep smoothing it over as I go.  Either way, I'm sure it will be fine.

Thanks for all the advice, you guys are really great

[Frosty]

We have that in common Lou, I can get so lost in details I forget what I wanted in the first place. Been that way all my life and the TBI made it worse. You may have noticed I like to write, I'm into sci fi, learned to read because Mother introduced me early on. The downside is I get so lost imagining details, say how devices work I lose the story. What I've discovered helpful getting the side track issue more under control is writing short stories. You have to develop characters, plot, start middle to end in a few hundred words. 

I can't find it now but there's an Einstein quote about not memorizing a subject and just looking up what you need. That man was full of cool quotes, a fun read.

Stopping at "good enough" is a major challenge. I'm not that kind of guy, being able to pull it off is a major victory. Weird as it seems the T burner as crude as it is meets my intent on all counts: short minimum equipment list, very basic shop skills, inexpensive, common parts, easy and effective. It's good enough. I STILL find myself refining it in my mind and occasionally post it as useful.

Good job on the video Lou, well done. The only problem with the lighting is having the open garage(?) door behind you, it's back lighting the shoot. Backlighting is a natural intuitive mistake. It makes it easy for YOU to see what you're doing but the camera is on the other side with the light in it's sensors so it stops down. I try to shoot with the camera on MY side or to my right. It's my dominant eye so I can better judge what the camera sees. Make sense?

Audio is excellent, you're easy to understand and have a pleasant voice. I so wish folks making how to videos would "dub" the narration. Most mics pick up certain frequencies better than others and white noise hits them all, the human voice not so much. Videoing with a forge running just makes the viewer  turn the sound off, all you can hear is loud roaring.

High kudos for your audio, thank you!

I'm glad you mentioned wetting the blanket before applying the rigidizer. It's called "buttering" in the masonry trade. It works by preventing whatever you're applying the mud to from flash drying it. Flash drying is when the, DRY underlying material, say: brick, ceramic blanket refractory, etc. literally sucks the moisture from the mud in contact. The dry layer can't bond to the material properly because there's a chalky layer separating them. Wetting "buttering" the material dilutes the mud slightly on contact and capillary action draws the mud into voids or along ceramic fibers so it's not just stuck to the surface, it has penetrated the material. AND the mortar, whatever Mud then can set properly and bond as designed. Sure it's only a few thousandths of an inch or so penetration but it makes THE difference.

I know that's too long an explanation for the video but that's why masons have a bucket of water and brush with them when they're laying. . . whatever. I don't recommend this for applying rigidizers or hard refractories, this is JUST FYI (for the curious) Masons give the bucket of water a little squirt of Elmer's (white milk, the yummy kind you ate as a kid. ) glue.

Another bit of info I learned in the soil's lab and can apply to the Greenpatch and it's silicic acid binder. Ramp your drying temp in the oven to 230 f. for an hour, less temp won't really do the trick. Silicilic acid converts to the chemist desired silica when the hygroscopic moisture is driven out. This is the water molecules that are bonded to the silicic molecules, it's what makes a compound Anhydrous. 

Last tip for this post. Slowly drying laundry borax in the oven to 230 f. makes it anhydrous. By slowly I mean leave it at the oven's lowest temp for an hour and ramp it up in increments hold for an hour just below 212 f. so the moisture does NOT BOIL. Boiling water WILL turn the borax into a cement-like material that requires crushing to use. If you heat it slowly, hold just below boiling THEN up to 230 f. borax will remain crumbly and be easy to crush, "friable" rather than glassy hard hit it with a hammer to crush material. Actually melting borax is completely unnecessary until you're fluxing a weld.

Welllll, you guys have probably had more than enough for now.

DRATS! Serves me right for starting the above reply last night and finishing it this morning without checking. <sigh>

NO FIREBRICK FLOOR!!! IF there isn't enough hard refractory to make a 1/2" floor, make your own hard refractory and apply it after the provided material is dried and fired. The easy and really effective home brew refractory is bentonite clay (cheap clay kitty litter) and something for grog. Crushing a little of that fire brick would make good grog but save them for thermal baffles, Mike will explain those. Sand will work as a grog. Use 2-3 pts grog to 1 pt clay. Mix, apply, dry and fire as you did the other refractory.

Bentonite is really awesome stuff, it's downside is it takes forE-V-E-R to dry.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[louspinuso]

Thanks for the additional advice.  I think the quote you're going for is:

Quote by Albert Einstein: “Never memorize something that you can look up.”

and that's a good bit of advice, IMO.  

Also, thanks for the kind words on the video and my narration.  I completely understand about the background noise and that means I either need to get a good lavalier mic or narrate everything after the fact (which is the more likely option going forward).  I totally understand about the backlighting but the lighting in the garage is so poor that I thought it would only help.  I have an idea for lighting for the next time I do this so it should be MUCH better. 

Also thanks for the explanation on "buttering".  While I am a technical person by trade, and my hobbies involve me working with my hands, I have a background in cooking and when coating something wet with something else wet in cooking, that generally just leaves you a mess.  This is why I made the chicken cutlet reference.  This is the reason you dredge the chicken in flour first, then dip in egg wash and then dip in breadcrumbs to make chicken cutlets.  That egg base with the bread crumbs is the magic in chicken cutlets and making that stick to the chicken requires flour.  On the other hand, fried chicken is all about soaking your pieces in milk/butter milk/whatever your family secret is and then dropping it in the seasoned flour.  That flour will stick very well to the now soaking chicken pieces and then go into the fryer (again wet to dry, never wet to wet or dry to dry), but this is way outside the scope of this convesation .

Also, if I understand you correctly, you're saying I should just take the greenpatch up to about 230 and once dry fire from there.  My initial plan (and I may have not been clear) is to start at below 212F (the lowest my oven will go, actually, which is in the 160 - 175 F range) then after an hour, go to 200f, then wait an hour and go to 300F, then wait an hour and go to 400F, etc until I hit the ovens maximum and then let it cool in the oven, closed, until the temperature is dropped (slowly to minimize cracking) enough to handle, and then fire.  Additionally you say to not use the firebricks as the floor.  These are hard firebricks, not the soft ones so not sure if that makes a difference, but if I don't use those, can I make a thick flat layer of Greenpatch for the bottom to use?  Or should I just go to the Dollar Tree and pickup a bag of unscented kitty litter and wet that down till it dissolves, add grog, lay it flat on the bottom, dry it again in the oven until it's got no moisture and then fire it with the burners?

Just trying to get it right the first time .

As for the borax directions, that sounds EXACTLY like how to make soda ash (except you start with sodium bicarbonate).  After an hour or so at about 200F, the baking soda turns into sodium carbonate (one carbon is released with the H2O).  This is used in salt water aquariums to raise alkalinity and pH.  Yet another expensive hobby I was in for a while about 10 or so years ago.  Loved it, will never do it again.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

3 hours ago, Frosty said:

That man was full of cool quotes,

One of my favorites... If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research.

[louspinuso]

Ain't that the truth Irondragon.

 

[Frosty]

I like his definition of insanity though I bet he was just being quoted for saying it so often to/about students and other researchers.

I ask myself that when trying to decide if I'm being justifiably persistent or insane.

Frosty The Lucky.

[louspinuso]

If you're results are consistently wrong, your probably being insane. If you're results are wrong but inconsistent, your being persistent.

[MaxwellB]

Lou, is that like "if it's stupid and it works, then it's not stupid"?

[louspinuso]

Maxwell, no but I like that one.  It means if you keep doing the same thing and your failing the same way, you're doing it won't. If you keep doing the same thing and your results are different each time, something wrong with either your methods or your material so keep going till you figure it out.

Mistakes are just lessons learned there hard way.

[MaxwellB]

That's the basis behind the Scientific Method. Can you replicate the success (or failure) by following the same steps someone else did. Science is a beautiful thing.

[louspinuso]

Exactly!!