jlpservicesinc Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 This might make it's own great thread. Wrought iron hammer making or something like that.. On 2/9/2019 at 10:42 AM, Latticino said: You want some real fun, try to hardface a 2.5# wrought iron hammer billet with 3/8" thickness of 52100. Must have been poor technique on my part, but I had a bear reaching wrought iron forge welding temperatures without "cottage-cheesing" the 52100. Probably should have realized that I only needed to get up to the welding temperature for the 52100. Love to get some direction from a more experienced smith like yourself Jennifer. Well thanks for asking.. I can tell you right off, the face thickness at 3/8" is way to thick.. the face of the hammer I'd guessing is about 1.25- 1.5sq inches.. This would need between 1/8" and 3/16 -1/4" thick to be successful not only in the weld but in hardening.. Not sure which kind of forge you use.. But Gas for this kind of thing is nearly impossible if the temperature in the forge is even.. You need to have a graduated heat source... Or completely remove the excess O2 content from the forge.. ( encased in clay) so you won't burn the HC steel.. In the coal forge after you have applied/stuck the face onto the head ((watch the set hammer video: https://youtu.be/No11sKGBkPk or the steeled wrought iron hammer video https://youtu.be/iZfJUhSKWIM ... I had wrote this all ready but got deleted when I added the links.. Errrrrr.. Anyhow.. Once the steel face is held onto the wrought iron you put the wrought iron into the main heart of the fire and put the steel face on the far side of the heart.. You then control the heat going to the face by adjusting where the wrought iron is placed in the heart of the fire.. Ideally the wrought iron and the steel face should come up to full welding temperature as you are placing the unit on the anvil.. The wrought iron will transfer the remaining heat need to the steel face as it is moved to the anvil for the weld.. I am always in awe or simply amazed when it all comes together as it is an instant process.. That first whack on the anvil sets the tone for what happens next... It is that one hit that sets the face completely.. Its crazy to see in person.. It's almost like there is a magnet pulling the 2 together.. Beautiful and so simple.. Crazy beautiful.. I'm in the process right now of editing making a straight cut hardie with a steel face.. mild steel and 5160.. and it did not want to weld.. It took 4 heats to get it to finally stick... Came out great.. but it was all because a bad batch of coal I had bought to test out.... I had problems several times getting a good forge weld with the stuff.. Plenty of heat when the air was poured to it, but it just seemed to stifle if the air wasn't constantly thrown at the fire.. Here is a 4lb hammer billet before figuring out final shape.. Started life as 1" stacked and welded.. Love the face that wrought iron leaves no seams.. You can see the steeled peen and face.. The orange pic is of the face welded on just before the peen is shaped.. One other thing.. It's about the square inches of welded face to thickness of the HC steel... It has something to do with how much the face will shrink and how it shrinks.. the face of the hammer when hardened will cool outside first moving to the center.. When this happened it literally will want to form a U shape on the face with bottom of the U sitting in the center.. when the face gets to thick with only a few square inches of weld in place.. The steel simply pulls off.. It can not sustain the pulling or better contraction of the edges around the face center and will pull the edges up.. By having a thinner face the sq inches of weld can resist the contraction forces of the steel and will keep the weld intact.. So the larger the sq inches of weld, the thicker the face can be... The 4lbs face is 3/8" to a little more.. The peen is nearly 1/2" thick but has more surface area of weld than the face.. The face on the 2.75" hammer 3/16- to 5/16" with a 1.25X 1.5" face.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donal Harris Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 I have been wanting to try this with a piece of 2” round I liberated from my father-in-law’s shop. I assume it is A36. Had I not read this I would have been doomed before I even started, because I would probably have used too thick of a piece of HC steel for the face. I have never heated such a thick piece of steel in my brake drum forge, but believe I should be able to get the steel hot enough. They aren’t quite as thick, but I have used my forge to put a 90 degree bend in a bale spike. What I am primarily concerned about is the weight. The piece is about 3.5’ long and heavy as heck. I am not sure if I could cut off and forge a hammer-sized chunk or try to hold the whole piece while forging the end from round to a rectangular shape. Assuming that is even possible by hand without a striker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 My vote is cut off just a little more than you intend to use. Repeatedly moving a 3.5' piece of 2" stock back and forth between the forge and anvil and trying to keep it steady while hammering would wear me out in short order. I did it once with a piece both a little shorter and slightly smaller diameter. After that I decided it's much better to cut off a chunk and weld a smaller diameter piece of stock to it (I don't like to use tongs if I can avoid it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Jennifer, Apologies for not responding to this post when you first made it. I must have missed it in the shuffle somehow. Really appreciate the detailed information. On 2/11/2019 at 2:03 PM, jlpservicesinc said: Not sure which kind of forge you use I've used a coal forge for both of the wrought/steel faced hammers I forged for just the reason you indicate. My residential pressure natural gas forge is finally running at a temperature that seems to reliably weld mild steel, but I still can't get wrought to work well. I do have a coal forge and old hand powered blower to setup, but am concerned that my neighbors will object to the smoke/smell. Have only made these hammers at other's forges. Interesting that the face can be too thick, but certainly logical the way you explain it. At the time I just wanted to be sure I had enough thickness to prolong the hammer face life. If I get a chance I'll post photos of mine. No where near as clean as your forgings, but I still use them regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted July 1, 2019 Author Share Posted July 1, 2019 Latticino it's great you quoted me. For some reason, I was not getting notifications for this thread. I have found that steeled wrought iron hammers even with a thinner face will last a very, very long time if used on hot metal to be forged.. Where they get beat up is with cold work.. Heavy use on 4140 or the like that the end is not annealed or soft as it should be, this hardness then peens the face of the hammer. this is where the greatest wear takes place. I do a periphery temper so leave the center of the face nearly untempered. the outer edges are just getting to peacock. It is really funny how hammer shape and face size has changed over the years. Especially blacksmith hammers. In the olden days a simple shape allowed for a new steel face to be welded back on when the hammer was worn or the face fell off. Because of the fancy nature of the hammer I made when the face finally comes off or cracks it will become a wall hanger as there is no good way to weld a new face back on. Good to hear on the technique with the coal forge. Many don't know this type of differential heat zone is even possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les L Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 On 6/27/2019 at 6:54 AM, Latticino said: but am concerned that my neighbors will object to the smoke/smell. Latticino, You need neighbors like I have, the one next door came over yesterday evening and showed me a picture of an old coal forge for sale $650 and wanted to know if he could buy it for me as a gift. I think he is more excited about me starting to do blacksmithing than I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 thats a nice hammer...I have found that it is much easier to weld wrought iron to steel in a gas forge than in a coke or coal forge, it's something I do quite regularly welding at steel temp. As an aside My first forging hammer was made like this and I eventually beat the face off of it. there was a curved nail holding the steel onto the wrought body and it must have been used to hold the pieces together during welding. I put it somewhere "safe" about 20 years ago so I wouldn't lose it.......maybe I'll find it one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Owen, I'll have to try that. I can get my natural gas forge up to high carbon welding temperatures pretty easily (even can hit mild steel welding temps, depending on the size). From my San Mai experience I have theorized that you only need to get the dissimilar metals up to the lower of the two welding temperatures, but haven't tested this. I know that one of Jim Austin's "tricks" is to use a sacrificial thin shim of 1075 when teaching his eccentric axe eye class, and it certainly seemed to work there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Basher are you arc welding the faces to the wrought iron first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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