Shabumi

Carbon migration question

Recommended Posts

I've been reading up on carbon migration, and I just had an off the wall idea. Could you take a thin sheet (~1% of billit size) of carbon fiber and sandwich it between 2 pieces of mild steel, forge weld it together and fold it a few times to homogenize it to get a billit of hardenable steel?

Edited by Shabumi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NO..  I mean it's more technical than that..   Carbon fiber is actually a filament, Not metal..   Steel for it to forge weld would need molecular contact..  Or direct contact and pressure even if small.. 

Now case hardening that might be a different take all together..  I don't remember the constituents of Carbon fiber strands.. I do know they do not like elongation or side impact.. All there strength happens when impacted on the very end.. 

My guess would be "NO"..  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the answer is could you take mesh and use something like a press to weld around it at barely L+A? Yes. Youd have to soak it for an enormously long time and the content wouldmt be that great plus carbon fiber isnt pure carbon. Graphite would work better and absorbs harmlessly into the steel, plus theres reaserch on that you can look up.

Is it a good method to carborize steel, no.

So there are a few better ways to do what your thinking. First is to forge weld in another alloy like cast iron and then fold and soak till the diffusion and migration balances out. There are specifc ways to weld that thats not conventional doesnt even have to be cast but cast to wrought was an ancient method used in weapon smithing.

Second is to pack carborize, or forge carborize... The second is tricky the first is easy, you just get a toilet paper roll, use painters tape to cover it, add wrought iron or your low carbon steel (people these days call modern .2 steel wrought iron but it isnt the real deal. The difference is the alloys microstructure, wrought aborbs and welds to everything the 1018 for example doesnt really stick that well to other things, just because of the micro structure. It can be done but its not as easy... So thats all technical.) and then your charcoal, seal it up with more tape and add a thin layer of refractory clay about hamon thickness, use a toaster oven at 250 for a few hours to dry it out and very carefully transport it to heat it at 1500-2200, the ABS master smiths iv questioned over the phone think 1750 is best for carborization and soak that for about 4-12 hours depending on the temp you use, higher temps use less time 2200 is as instant as it gets but the longer you soak it the lower the melting temp gets and you risk a crucible, unless you wanted to try it that works too. Calculating that is a pain your variables are always changing, more carbon and the longer the soak time the lower the melting temp changes to and you always have the question, what is the variable?

You can use the same method to make bloom steel without the bloom, you just mix some 1095 powder with iron sand you can get online for about 3$ a pound, some charcoal dust in a 1-1 volume ratio and pack the top with flux like borax seal it up and just soak it under melting temp, welding 2200 only takes 4 hours, above 1450 takes about 12 hours. The material will weld and defuse at 1450 after an hour but it wont fully absorb or migrate till after 12 hours at that temp. 12 hours keeps some difference 24 gives about as even as it gets, depends on if you want the 1095 to keep an off content, generally the steel is stronger with the spots of the 1095 being different.

Thats on my experience and expiriments, hope it helps with your expiriments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

where did you get the idea that 1018 doesnt stick to things?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I"m not even sure if this response has a place here or not but based on your question.. 

My own experience holds this to be true in a way.  (well comparatively) . ( I'm not talking about general welding or welding a bar of W1, W2, O1 etc etc, to the end of side of a bar as would be) but facing things   ..  Wrought iron seems to mold into the nooks and crannies better and has a more spongy, Ductile makeup.. 

I've been doing a lot of steeling  of mild steel  (1018 HR and CR) items like the set hammer, hardies,  Hammers and such..  Wrought iron is just so much easier and consistent..  It's one of the reasons I have been spending so much time having fun with the process.. 

With Mild steels and MC or HC steels,  Well depending on alloy does make a difference..    The other factor that makes a difference is how thick the face is.. I figured it in square inches of over all weld size and then thickness of the face..   I found there is a ratio that works very consistently and minimizes the face peeling off part..  The larger the welded surface area the thicker the face can be and the weld still survive hardening..  Same is true with wrought iron but the thickness of the face can be greater vs Mild steel for the same given Sq inches of weld..     The old smiths had it figured out so well.. The amount of steel was very small compared to what we think of as being an appropriate layup for steeled items again in a general sense.. 

This isn't being applied to knife making which is a whole different can of worms. ( billet layup and such) . I am strictly talking tools and tooling where a thick HC face is welded to a mild steel backing vs Wrought iron backing.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You want some real fun, try to hardface a 2.5# wrought iron hammer billet with 3/8" thickness of  52100.  Must have been poor technique on my part, but I had a bear reaching wrought iron forge welding temperatures without "cottage-cheesing" the 52100.  Probably should have realized that I only needed to get up to the welding temperature for the 52100.  Love to get some direction from a more experienced smith like yourself Jennifer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well by stick to things i mean that litterally like duct tape, you can still peel the tape off but it will just... Stick. 

Im not saying 1018 isnt weldable its just merely the microstructure of ingot steel has areas where the alloys are bunched up and then areas where its just iron, that inconsistency is where the problems awry. Wrought iron tends to be more pure iron and yes it plastically deforms much easier then 1018 as Jennifer pointed out, so it sticks better. The carborized wrought has a few interesting mechanical properties which make it more useful to anything thats intended to be hardened or welded. Its different then ingot steel.

Which if you mess up and over carborize you can just remix it with other layers and fold till you get it right.

Other simple reason i recommended it was that the traditionalists use wrought they purchased or made to carborize so you can readily reaserch into that wheras pack carborizing 1018 wouldnt be that prevalent in a google search, wheras people like Verhoeven like to list it their papers... Key terms being blister steel and sheer steel there, was a major method of refining steel to be used in crucibles for a few hundreds of years.

Most of the available data on phase diagrams is also iron iron carbon so its closer to home i guess...

No offence was ment to those who weld 1018, wrought is expensive.

Edited by Sly
Fixed a grammar mistake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For some older wild experiments with carbon migration may I commend to your attention  "The Cementation of Iron and Steel" Giollitti, Richards, Rouiller an oldie but full of lots of oddball experiments they tried---Can you use diamonds as a carbon donor?   Can you case harden without the presence of Carbon Monoxide? etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The scary thing is that most of the books I cite are sitting on my bookshelves within reach...Bookcases make for better wall insulation than monitors do.

That one is nice in that it can show people how to go about designing an experiment by figuring out all the things they dealt with in their experiments.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/9/2019 at 10:59 AM, Sly said:

Key terms being blister steel and sheer steel there, was a major method of refining steel to be used in crucibles for a few hundreds of years.

I had for awhile a small stash of Carbonized wrought iron.. It was amazing to work with.. If I had to guess I'd say 0.75 carbon in one bar a a touch more in the other..  One bar was 3/4" round and the other was 1" round.. Had about 10ft of each.. It was only used for items that were to be cherished and used sparingly.. (non destructive like a cold chisel).. 

The cutting edge was amazing as was the welding ability to other wrought iron or steels for that matter..  It sharpened in just a few strokes of the strop and held the edge for what seemed like forever.. 
I did some looking into it with microscope on the edge and once sharpened the edge was almost self sharpening in use..  Mainly wood tools and 1 knife i had made..  

It rusted the same with a grain pattern as wrought iron but was splendid to work with..  Even with the added carbon it forged more like wrought iron than modern steels.. 

Thomas, I to love a hand held book...  Problem is unless you get lucky enough or have enough money, many of these older titles are hard to find in a tangible fixture.. 

I made the mistake years ago of lending out some of my treasures only to never have them come back home and once I gave up smithing It became a back seat as I never figured I'd need or want the information ever again.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the answers everyone, and the book TP &JLP. I have it downloaded and it's on my reading list.

After posting I thought it through and reasoned it probably wouldn't work, but for different reasons than stated above. I thought the carbon fiber would burn out before you got the rest of the metal to welding heat, leaving you with ash. The ash could be used as a flux to weld the two halves together I guess. 

It was just an odd ball idea that popped into my head, so I thought I'd ask. I have a bunch of those floating around in here... Differentially electro-magnetized levitating anvil(DC power wrapped around anvil 'stand' and wrapped reverse around anvil feet to magnetize and levitate, AC power wrapped just under face to demagnetize. The stand is a large metal block with tracks above it to keep anvil at right height and to stop wandering), cymatic casting/annealing table(using sound or micro vibrations to align the crystaline matrix while cooling), bacon matzo ball soup(bacon pieces in the matzo balls, not kosher but it would taste amazing). The list goes on and on.

JLP, that hammer looks great. Would love to see it when it's done... Never mind, I see it's on its own thread in the hammer section. It looks great.

Edited by Shabumi
I saw the hammer in another thread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 different hammers.. The 2.75 has it's own thread.. The 4lbs still in works.. Can't decide on what I want it to be design wise.. 

If you are really interested in doing it..  Try it..     I'm self taught and thankful in many ways that this is the case..  It allowed for me to experiment without having any bias.. 

The vibration thing is already a reality..  There is a pre/post ultra sonic/sound machine used for the fabrication industry to remove internal stress of weldaments..  It has proven to keep distortion and cracks to a minimum..  

I forget the name of it now, but it's been out about 5 years.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first idea for carbonization was to pack carborize a bar 1045 for a sword so the outside would be around .8-9 % and the interior would still be the .45.

It worked decently but i made the mistake of carborizing the round and then working it. my forging left the content uneven as to where it was, after forging and grinding it the content was really uneven and it warped. So if you wanted a tool with differential treatment i would advise either having an even carbon content or selectively carborizing just the part you wanted to after it was shaped.. Say you wanted to carborize just the tip end of a wood chisel?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/11/2019 at 12:15 PM, jlpservicesinc said:

The vibration thing is already a reality..  There is a pre/post ultra sonic/sound machine used for the fabrication industry to remove internal stress of weldaments.

Very interesting. I found alot of info on it on the first search of "ultrasonic weld". 

From that quick search I found out it's called "Ultrasonic Impact Technology (UTI)"  which is used for tensile stress reduction(annealing) and/or introducing beneficial compression stress(work hardening) on welds. It can be used to treat hard to reach areas without any heat, and it's programmable for consistent results. It has been effective on alluminum, bronze, Cobalt alloys, nickel alloys, steel, and titanium.

Where I've been mulling over my idea for months without being able to find any info on it. It took me 5 min to find all this info with the right search terms. Guess my google-fu isn't as honed as I thought.  Now that Im on the right track, it's time to do more research.

Thanks Jennifer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My pleasure.. I am involved with SME so the information comes through the pipe line pretty quickly..  I  used to do a lot of fabrication work 5-6 years ago was some really neat technology.. On thin sections where warping is a major concern, this technology is supposed to nearly eliminate the warping action..  It has 2  electrodes that just connect to the work piece and shazam..  

"SME is an association of professionals, educators, and students committed to promoting and supporting the manufacturing industry.

We offer an unmatched breadth of support and resources for manufacturers. SME offers the top manufacturing technology resources and news, and produces the industry’s most valuable events. We deliver leading training and development solutions for your workforce. Our student outreach and scholarship programs help attract and empower manufacturing’s next generation. And our member community is the most prestigious and experienced in the business."

They have different aspects with aerospace, Heavy mfg, etc, etc..  Anyhow, neat stuff...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now